Changes with LEGO: Anyone Else Catch These Things?

[justafrog]

True enough.

 

It's not a matter of believing you or not believing you - I don't know you, but I am relatively certain from your forum posts that you are not trying to intentionally mislead anyone. I believe that you believe what you're saying (same with all the other posters in this thread, for that matter).

 

What I'm asking for, and not getting, is factual data to back up the beliefs. Without it, it continues to be supposition and theory, not fact as it's been presented.

 

Bottom line: I think TLG is getting out of China (and all their factories) exactly what they ordered. Today, maybe, if we assume everything you believe to be true, all the "bad" stuff comes out of China - but that has nothing to do with China, it has to do with the list of specs that TLG hands to China and the product they accept from them.

 

There is no reason to believe that some of the "bad" parts might not even now also be coming out of Denmark, or Mexico, or elsewhere, based on a list of specs that TLG hands that factory, and certainly no reason to believe that TLG's new factory in China will or will not produce a certain quality of parts - it will depend on what specs TLG hands them. Maybe TLG intends all their future "good" parts to made in the new Chinese factory, we have no idea.

[Pirate]

What I'm asking for, and not getting, is factual data to back up the beliefs. Without it, it continues to be supposition and theory, not fact as it's been presented.

Not getting? How much more than 'EVERYTHING IN THIS BAG IS MADE IN CHINA' do you need?

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[dbost01]

Just a question to a serious minifigure collector.

 

Does the quality of the minifigure coming out of china(like the Lego Movie Minifigures) make you more hesitant about continuing your collecting?

[Darth_Raichu]

justafrog, here is a picture of the back of a TLM CMF package. It does say components made in China (and nowhere else)

[justafrog]

Not getting? How much more than 'EVERYTHING IN THIS BAG IS MADE IN CHINA' do you need?

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For that bag, that's interesting information as far as it goes, which isn't far. Let's say every piece in that bag is sub-standard and bad. Let's say every piece in a bag labeled "Made in Denmark" is good.

 

If TLG is telling China, today, "use these specs" and those specs result in "bad" parts for every part made in China (not proven), and TLG is telling Denmark, today, "use these specs" and those specs result in "good" parts for every part made in Denmark (not proven), all that tells us is that TLG, for whatever reason, is currently, today, producing all their "bad" (personal opinion of some collectors) parts in China and all their "good" (ditto) parts in Denmark.

 

(And since none of us have a complete list of all the parts made in either China or Denmark, as far as I have heard, all that is wild supposition).

 

It says nothing for what is happening overall today or yesterday, or what will happen next week, or in the next factory, or with the next list of parts they'll have produced in either location. All it says is that TLG is happy to have a certain quality of CMF figure at a given moment in time, regardless of the factory involved, within certain parameters, or they wouldn't accept what the Chinese factory is producing for them.

[Stevenplays]

My grandpa ran a plastic injection mold business for many years and I asked him about this and he told me Chinese Manufacturing won't change the quality of parts because they will use the same molds and machines. They will be there monitoring the process and make sure everything is going right, it's not like they're turning the whole manufacturing plant over to a bunch of Chinese people and see what happens.

-I don't always going shopping, but when I do I buy Lego-

 

Exactly, the only change is that certain parts don't contain serial numbers and such. Some figures, such as one of the POTC minifigures (don't remember which one, sorry) was manufactured in China and there was a huge quality drop. But more recently the quality is much closer, if not the same, to LEGO's main headquarters.

[Mos_Eisley]

I'll have to check but I believe every series of CMF has been produced in China. All these discussions took place a couple years ago when Series 1 started hitting the streets. People noticed a change in quality immediately. If you like CMF figures, you don't have a choice. I collect them and don't care so much, but I don't think it's possible to deny that they are different from regular set minifigures. CMF and magnets are quickly mass produced so it doesn't surprise me at all that they would be made with lower specifications.

[dbost01]

So..do u collectors of minifigures no longer want to collect the minifigures that are coming out of china?

[justafrog]

I'll have to check but I believe every series of CMF has been produced in China. All these discussions took place a couple years ago when Series 1 started hitting the streets. People noticed a change in quality immediately. If you like CMF figures, you don't have a choice. I collect them and don't care so much, but I don't think it's possible to deny that they are different from regular set minifigures. CMF and magnets are quickly mass produced so it doesn't surprise me at all that they would be made with lower specifications.

 

That all makes perfect sense to me. Considering that the CMF figures are low priced, it follows that TLG might decide to cut some corners in the specs.

[lego rules]

My only point was don't assume if TLG begins full scale production in China that equates to a drop in quality.  The only time a drop in quality happens is when TLG decides it.

[Darth_Raichu]

Lol, I never paid attention to the CMF packaging to figure out where they were made.

A picture of the back of CMF series 1 (made in China):

Here is a picture of series 8 (also made in China)

[dbost01]

All this talk about inferior quality and what not really only matters if collectors will stop collecting them. Do any of you collectors out there now shy away from collecting minfigures made in china?

[Mos_Eisley]

I agree. Unfortunately, thanks to the lower quality of the CMF plastic, people assume that everything coming from there will be lower quality. It doesn't have to be true, but as it currently stands, what people have been getting from there has been a lower quality. I believe it is intentional, so hopefully the elements for regular sets will continue to be produced at the higher standard regardless of where they are being produced.

[mcortez]

I can't provide any documented proof on this, and the info I have is a decade old and second hand, but there was at one point a culture of skimming, kickbacks and cost cutting that pervaded China.  The stories I've been told had to do with printed goods, books, board games, card games, etc related to the table top gaming industry (think:  Dungeons & Dragons, Magic the Gathering, HeroClix, etc.)

 

In general, many of the factories in china were perfectly capable of producing products on-par or even in some cases exceeding the quality of the products made in America or Europe.  When large companies would spec a product, they would sometimes send representatives to China to evaluate the production line, check quality on pre-production samples and sign off on the production of however many units they needed (be it 10k or 1m units.)  

 

The problems would generally start as soon as the factory would re-order supplies.  If the U.S. company provided  material specs to the factory and allowed the factory to source the materials, than as soon as the factory needed to resupply they would send out the materials for a rebid from their suppliers (or if they had a preferred business partner they would just go direct to them) -- this would often result in the factory either getting the materials for less and keeping the difference for themselves, or getting kickbacks of one type or another -- the problem was that sometimes these new materials would not actually meet spec and would result in lower quality product.  Since the U.S. company would normally not have one of there people "on the ground" these sub-standard materials wouldn't necessarily get caught and would make it into the U.S. supply chain and out to retailers.  Now sometimes, these would get identified later, sometimes they wouldn't.  If found, sometimes the U.S. company would switch factories -- but generally the costs of moving production would out weigh the benefits and they would get "reassurances" from the factory that they would only use approved vendors for materials in the future (which would sometimes stick and sometimes not.)

 

The largest companies keep a quality team in-place, on the ground, locally in China to make sure these things don't happen -- but many companies find it cost prohibitive.

 

 

Another anecdote was an NPR story I heard last year that had to do with Apparel manufacturing.  The problem that industry would have is that they would get production samples from a factory and they would be perfect.  The factory would start producing the product and suddenly the product would get popular.  The manufacturer would contact the factory and ask if they can ramp up the production on their next run so that instead of 10k units on the next shipment they need 50k units.  The factory, not wanting to loose the business, would say "sure no problem" even though they knew they couldn't possibly produce more than 20k units in the given time frame.  The factory would then subcontract with other factories to produce the extra and those factories would then produce sub-standard product that would end up mixed in with the good stuff.

 

 

This kind of behavior is not unique to China, or even to just a few regions -- this kind of activity happens world wide, it is just more pervasive in China (or at least it was a decade ago.)  It's the responsibility of the manufacturers to find reliable factories that can produce on-spec, and to spend the resources needed to make sure the product ships on-spec.  It just happens that when you own your own factories, or when your employees don't have to travel halfway around the world to do Q/A, than it's more likely you'll keep a closer eye on the results.

 

Not much point to arguing about all of it though -- perhaps TLG decided that the collectible minifigs were less likely to be "played" with in the same manor as the figures from their normal sets, and as such they could cut some corners with the particular quality of ABS used, the maintenance & quality of the molds (are the mold lines more visible on the CMFs?), etc.

[naf]

Regarding the Chinese-made minifigs.... people judge quality differently.  From a plastics perspective, it seems like the durability of the plastic of Chinese-made minifigs is the same as "normal" Lego minifgs.  The differences I see are in the colors.  CMF's have noticeable color issues, especially in the early runs.  Also, the Kingdom's battle packs and chess sets are both produced in China, and the color differences on the yellow plastic and printing are extremely obvious compared to the "normal" figures.  If they keep producing figures in China, I hope they get the color issues sorted out.

 

In some respects, I wish the Chinese figures had the same markings as the normal figures, like the black mark on the neck, Lego wordmark on the inner arm, etc.  Down the road I can see myself getting accused of selling knock off figures from less than educated buyers because these things are missing.  A little consistency would be nice.

 

I welcome the reduction in box size.  Much easier to store and ship smaller boxes.  Even sets I keep for my personal collection, I don't get around to building everything so they have to stay in the closet until a rainy day.  Big boxes are impressive, and I know I loved getting those gigantic things for Christmas as a kid, but the boxes were cooler back then with the front flap showcasing the special pieces, etc.  Boxes today aren't that fancy.

[StarCityBrickCompany]

So, I really want to know how everyone feels about those LEGO that are being produced in China - I kinda feel like people are holding back from expressing their true feelings

 

I think that the biggest reason LEGO decided to produce the Collectable Minifigs in China was due to the unique accessories. As far as quality, I guess there is a certain feel that they seem to have - a bit lighter maybe, less of that oily sheen, and the plastic feels a bit harder/brittle, although I can't say that I have actually encountered many broken/cracked ones.

[MartinP]

So, I really want to know how everyone feels about those LEGO that are being produced in China - I kinda feel like people are holding back from expressing their true feelings

As long as the same quality of Lego is produced in China, I'm happy. If the quality of the Lego sets noticeably drop, then I will have a problem. It doesn't make a difference whether something is produced in another country if it is the same quality.

[knarrff]

As long as the same quality of Lego is produced in China, I'm happy. If the quality of the Lego sets noticeably drop, then I will have a problem. It doesn't make a difference whether something is produced in another country if it is the same quality.

I can only agree. Otherwise we would all have to buy Lego produced in Denmark, and you know how much _that_ would cost us.

[Jojoyojimbi]

ok, so I read the entire thread, I have to say a couple of you have your heads up your rear and just refuse to believe there's been a decline in quality.  Take any CMF, and hold it up to a flashlight or other bright light source, now take a nonCMF figure that wasn't made in china and do the same, make sure it's the same color, NOW tell me there's not a difference in the plastic quality

 

High quality figures aren't TRANSLUCENT!

[kiltyoneal]

I was looking at some minifigs from my older sets and noticed that the ones from the sets listed below didn't have the Lego logo in the feet either:

http://brickset.com/sets/1560-1/Glory-Glider

http://brickset.com/sets/1561-1/Stunt-Chopper

http://brickset.com/sets/1562-1/Wave-Jumper

http://brickset.com/sets/1563-1/Track-Blaster

 

I think I still have the original packaging for them.  I'll check to see where they were made, but I don't think Lego was using China at that time (1990).

[justafrog]

ok, so I read the entire thread, I have to say a couple of you have your heads up your rear and just refuse to believe there's been a decline in quality.  

 

If that's what you got after reading the entire thread, I recommend a remedial course in reading for comprehension.

 

The question isn't whether the quality is different, its whether its different because the manufacturer in China is bad and LEGO, for mysterious reasons, doesn't do anything about it, or if the quality is different because TLG intends it to be so.

[Jimking23]

If we could only figure out EOL dates as well as we have deciphered mini fig production

[justafrog]

If we could only figure out EOL dates as well as we have deciphered mini fig production

 

And the bubble! Don't forget the bubble! 

[adewar]

I suppose I am one of those with my head up my rear. I would like to see some evidence that Chinese figs are of lesser quality. I don't think comparing cmf to regular figs is sufficient(specs could be different for cmfs). I think it would have to be a Chinese "set fig" compared to a non-Chinese set fig. Weights, transparency (via flashlight), even stress tests may offer good basis for comparison. I think most are happy with the "any idiot can tell the difference" basis for establishing fact. That's fine. We are of different minds.

[Jojoyojimbi]

it's not a matter of "any idiot can tell the difference" anyone who handles a few old school minifigs then checks out the newer ones can even tell there's been a decline in the nonchinese quality

 

I've been collecting lego going back 30+ years and the older blocks I've got have a much higher quality feel to them than new blocks, and it's not that they're just newer and shinier, there's a material difference