Complaint Thread

[BricksBrotha]

43 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Wait, so your defense is he cannot walk and chew gum at the same time, therefore he is a good president

Wait a sec, did I ever equate Biden to a good president?? I simply said comparing his first 60 days in office to any other president would be a false sense of comparison.  As for a good president, how could anyone say that a few months into a term?  I will reserve judgement until his time has ended and we can look back in analysis through a lens of retrospect.

A president willing to stay out of the media and get to work in the midst of a crisis/challenge is a much different tune than immediately picking up his cell to regurgitate tweet out rhetoric and most of the time flat out lies.  This change may take some time getting use to.

43 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

The bolded line above is a definition of a crisis isn't it? So where is our illustrious leader?

I can tell you where he is not, on twitter throwing a hissy fit.

Edited March 5, 2021 by BricksBrotha
typo

[Darth_Raichu]

15 minutes ago, BricksBrotha said:

Wait a sec, did I ever equate Biden to a good president?? I simply said comparing his first 60 days in office to any other president would be a false sense of comparison.  As for a good president, how could anyone say that a few months into a term?  I will reserve judgement until his time has ended and we can look back in analysis through a lens of retrospect.

A president willing to stay out of the media and get to work in the midst of a crisis/challenge is a much different tune than immediately picking up his cell to regurgitate tweet out rhetoric and most of the time flat out lies.  This change may take some time getting use to.

I can tell you where he is not, on twitter throwing a hissy fit.

Just to be clear, I want the same standards applied to the previous presidents (not just Trump) to be applied to the new one (ie. consistency).  Staying out of the media is not something President / leader / CEO should do in a time of crisis (ie, if the situation was a crisis when Trump was a president, it did not immediately change to normal just because a new president was elected).

[exracer327]

28 minutes ago, Mark Twain said:

To be fair, the nuance pointed out in the article is that Biden has both taken questions and made himself available in at least one town hall format and the right has taken this narrative and catastrophized it. While I agree his age is troubling, I think its more or less political move on Biden's part in terms of not wanting to piss off Manchin or some other swing vote right before the stimulus bill goes up. 

 

Taking prearranged questions with "safe" people is not making one's self "available".  There are videos of at least one town hall meeting where a young woman said, "They wanted me to ask you [Mr. Biden] xxxx, but I really want to know what you think about yyyy."  And then Biden stumbles in his answer.

I believe Biden would have mopped the floor with Trump in 2016.  But Biden is sadly not the same in 2021.  The fire isn't there and his cognizant skills are definitely not the same as in 2016.

[Mark Twain]

Taking prearranged questions with "safe" people is not making one's self "available".  There are videos of at least one town hall meeting where a young woman said, "They wanted me to ask you [Mr. Biden] xxxx, but I really want to know what you think about yyyy."  And then Biden stumbles in his answer.
I believe Biden would have mopped the floor with Trump in 2016.  But Biden is sadly not the same in 2021.  The fire isn't there and his cognizant skills are definitely not the same as in 2016.

I can’t argue with his cognitive skills, but it was pretty clear in the election what we were getting in terms of a 78 year old president. The article points out that Biden has repeatedly made himself available to reporters from Fox and answered their questions.

[BricksBrotha]

8 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Just to be clear, I want the same standards applied to the previous presidents (not just Trump) to be applied to the new one (ie. consistency).  Staying out of the media is not something President / leader / CEO should do in a time of crisis (ie, if the situation was a crisis when Trump was a president, it did not immediately change to normal just because a new president was elected).

Just to be clear, each president set their own standards.  It’s from their actions we form our expectations.

Staying out of the limelight while work is being done(especially bipartisan) can be a good thing.  We tend to forget that when we are inundated by mass media and the past presidency. 

Why do you think even CNN is huffing about this?  Because they don’t get the views/clicks, they need headlines=$. More important to them than actually getting legislation done for the average person. 



 

 

[Darth_Raichu]

1 minute ago, BricksBrotha said:

Just to be clear, each president set their own standards.  It’s from their actions we form our expectations.

Staying out of the limelight while work is being done(especially bipartisan) can be a good thing.  We tend to forget that when we are inundated by mass media and the past presidency. 

Why do you think even CNN is huffing about this?  Because they don’t get the views/clicks, they need headlines=$. More important to them than actually getting legislation done for the average person. 
 

Is it a crisis or is it not a crisis?  There are actions that are expected from leaders in time of crisis regardless of their leadership preferences.  

[KvHulk]

What's the problem again? Biden isn't doing enough news conferences? That's a good thing, no? A day with no politics is a good day.

[BricksBrotha]

22 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Is it a crisis or is it not a crisis?  There are actions that are expected from leaders in time of crisis regardless of their leadership preferences.  

Yes, one of biggest crisis/concerns atm is getting a stimulus bill passed.  If making a speech could delay or harm the bill passing, then one could state his actions would be helping to expedite the legislation, thus avoiding crisis level.

Also, the other crisis at hand is the vaccination role out.  This had been forced to change because of the variables involved when dealing with a biological agent. 

It was announced upon review, the Trump administration had no plan conceived for rolling out the vaccine. Most likely would have been the highest bidder. That to me is a MAJOR crisis and true failure of leadership.

We are talking about the only avenue that will eventually allow us to return to normal and the Leader of the freeworld was too busy holding a battle rally and tanning in Mar-a-Lago, to take the effort in formulating a vaccination plan.

Its a noble cause to want consistent standards in government, but who are we kidding here. You want rational thinking from our society? You mean Cancel Culture?  

[Darth_Raichu]

6 minutes ago, BricksBrotha said:

Its a noble cause to want consistent standards in government, but who are we kidding here. You want rational thinking from our society? You mean Cancel Culture? 

Yes, I want standards. Is that so hard to ask?  I am tired of everyone in R camp complains about president from D camp while not using the same standards to hold R president accountable.  And vice versa.

[$20 on joe vs dan]

9 minutes ago, BricksBrotha said:

Yes, one of biggest crisis/concerns atm is getting a stimulus bill passed.  If making a speech could delay or harm the bill passing, then one could state his actions would be helping to expedite the legislation, thus avoiding crisis level.

Also, the other crisis at hand is the vaccination role out.  This had been forced to change because of the variables involved when dealing with a biological agent. 

It was announced upon review, the Trump administration had no plan conceived for rolling out the vaccine. Most likely would have been the highest bidder. That to me is a MAJOR crisis and true failure of leadership.

We are talking about the only avenue that will eventually allow us to return to normal and the Leader of the freeworld was too busy holding a battle rally and tanning in Mar-a-Lago, to take the effort in formulating a vaccination plan.

Its a noble cause to want consistent standards in government, but who are we kidding here. You want rational thinking from our society? You mean Cancel Culture?  

My expectation "standard" of the POTUS whenever he communicates:

1. Does not make things worse
2. Does not further divide the country
3. Does not embarrass our country
4. Does not blame another person or entity (The "buck" stops at the POTUS); unless it's another world leader deserving scrutiny

I really don't give a flip about some arbitrary deadline to make an appearance

 

[SpaceFan9]

17 minutes ago, BricksBrotha said:

It was announced upon review, the Trump administration had no plan conceived for rolling out the vaccine.

 

Source?  'cause vaccines were arriving in my area mid-Dec, with a full month left in Trumps' 1st term.

[TANV]

38 minutes ago, SpaceFan9 said:

Source?  'cause vaccines were arriving in my area mid-Dec, with a full month left in Trumps' 1st term.

 

 

58 minutes ago, BricksBrotha said:

It was announced upon review, the Trump administration had no plan conceived for rolling out the vaccine. Most likely would have been the highest bidder. That to me is a MAJOR crisis and true failure of leadership.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/27/ron-klain/trump-vaccine-plan-left-logistics-states-it-did-ex/

 

Technically, there was a plan. In may respects, it wasn't a good plan but there was something. The major issues stem from the lack of coordination and putting too much of the onus on the states to handle the logistics and delivery themselves.

The major issues stemmed from lack of federal money assistance, further specifics about the vision and end goal, lack of communication and logistical concerns.  There WAS a plan but it was at best, and basic outline and not clearly spelled entirely out of what was going to happen. 

[Darth_Raichu]

57 minutes ago, TANV said:

 

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/27/ron-klain/trump-vaccine-plan-left-logistics-states-it-did-ex/

 

Technically, there was a plan. In may respects, it wasn't a good plan but there was something. The major issues stem from the lack of coordination and putting too much of the onus on the states to handle the logistics and delivery themselves.

The major issues stemmed from lack of federal money assistance, further specifics about the vision and end goal, lack of communication and logistical concerns.  There WAS a plan but it was at best, and basic outline and not clearly spelled entirely out of what was going to happen. 

Ok, I understood the disconnect (I think).  Trump expected to run vaccine distribution (perhaps the US government) like a company in the private sector.  Ex: the CEO would give general directions to his/her senior team and it is up to the team to figure out the details.  This goes down the chain, ie. Senior President of Marketing give his team of Senior Managers some directions (more precise / refined than the CEO's direction), but still let the Managers figure out the more detail logistics on their own.  So on and so forth.

However, the government does not work this way. Everything has to have precise detail instruction to the miniscule points.  This is why they have a sub-committee of sub-committee to refine section 12.3.b.ii regarding distribution of item A under directive XYZ. (sorry I have to oversimplify the example ).   The underlings are not expected to deduce general directions, they are expected to do exactly as the instructions  given to them to do for their jobs.  Since Biden's team is from inside the government, they are used to the way government works, not how private sector works.

Two different systems with different expectations.  Not a judgement of which one is better or worse.  But I see why the majority of US government (including the Republicans) hated Trump.  I also see why a lot of regular Americans, who do not work in government or understand how the government works, like Trump.

Before you say anything, I know it is an oversimplification of a complex topic.  I was trying to explain the problem, not creating a workable solution (you have to pay me tons of $$$$ to come up with that)

[spener90]

13 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Ok, I understood the disconnect (I think).  Trump expected to run vaccine distribution (perhaps the US government) like a company in the private sector.  Ex: the CEO would give general directions to his/her senior team and it is up to the team to figure out the details.  This goes down the chain, ie. Senior President of Marketing give his team of Senior Managers some directions (more precise / refined than the CEO's direction), but still let the Managers figure out the more detail logistics on their own.  So on and so forth.

However, the government does not work this way. Everything has to have precise detail instruction to the miniscule points.  This is why they have a sub-committee of sub-committee to refine section 12.3.b.ii regarding distribution of item A under directive XYZ. (sorry I have to oversimplify the example ).   The underlings are not expected to deduce general directions, they are expected to do exactly as the instructions  given to them to do for their jobs.  Since Biden's team is from inside the government, they are used to the way government works, not how private sector works.

Two different systems with different expectations.  Not a judgement of which one is better or worse.  But I see why the majority of US government (including the Republicans) hated Trump.  I also see why a lot of regular Americans, who do not work in government or understand how the government works, like Trump.

Before you say anything, I know it is an oversimplification of a complex topic.  I was trying to explain the problem, not creating a workable solution (you have to pay me tons of $$$$ to come up with that)

I actually think this is quite clear and well stated, so at least it makes sense to me (before you start getting attacked by everyone).

[exracer327]

My mom, who lives in Iowa, received both doses before the end of January.  I live in NJ, where I don't know any one who received a vaccine shot until early-Feb.  

So when people say "there was no plan," I don't think we can say that is true all over the country.  Some states clearly picked up the ball (as was the apparent Trump plan) and ran with it.  Other states were reluctant to do anything with the vaccine until Biden was in office.  Cuomo and Murphy (Gov's NY and NJ) both said this.  I believe them because I saw the count of how many vaccines had been delivered to NJ in December.  But NJ apparently didn't do anything with them until February.  Then they point the finger at Trump?  *sigh* 

In the end, praise God we have vaccines.  If it wasn't for the foresight of warp speed, we will still be waiting years (5-10) for one vaccine, let alone three.  What warp speed did was took the results of phase 1 testing and instead of putting them on the bottom of the FDA approval stack, they went to the top and were processed immediately.  So what would normally have taken years before phase 2 began only took weeks.  The same for going from phase 2 to 3.  This is why the vaccines were produced so fast.  No testing was rushed, it all went at a normal speed.  The paperwork wasn't even sped up.  They just got to it much faster than they would normally. 

So can we finally move on from the blame game and just be thankful we have vaccines and the end of this cursed virus is near?

 

[BricksBrotha]

1 hour ago, TANV said:

 

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/27/ron-klain/trump-vaccine-plan-left-logistics-states-it-did-ex/

 

Technically, there was a plan. In may respects, it wasn't a good plan but there was something. The major issues stem from the lack of coordination and putting too much of the onus on the states to handle the logistics and delivery themselves.

2 hours ago, SpaceFan9 said:

Source?  'cause vaccines were arriving in my area mid-Dec, with a full month left in Trumps' 1st term.

 

Experts agree, It was hardly a plan, if not more of an approach.  He also failed to communicate the amount of doses and "ROLL OUT"  Explain to me your definition of roll out?   I mean spell it out more clearly, there was absolutely no detailed plan. 

 

1 hour ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Yes, I want standards. Is that so hard to ask?  I am tired of everyone in R camp complains about president from D camp while not using the same standards to hold R president accountable.  And vice versa.

I couldn't agree more with your sentiment. I am forced to actually live daily in a reality of standards. I live in a world controlled by USDA, ISO, OSHA standards, requirements, sops, wi, guidance documents yada yada yada These are all facts.  Easy to follow, cant take a stand one way or the other. No emotion required.  I can easily define standards.  But asking the general public to do this? When most of them get their information from MSM?

Wanting the equivalent rules and standards of say a BSL2 in an arena with absolutely no rules or standards is absolutely hard to ask for.  Actually I feel its quite silly to ask for in the grand scheme and i mean that in no insult or ill intent.  In an arena where one has to basically lie, cheat and be corrupt in order to make it up the 'latter', standards are hard to follow. 

5 minutes ago, exracer327 said:

In the end, praise God we have vaccines.

I choose to give thanks for the scientist/dr's who made this happen, some even lost their lives. I live in Maine and we also had the elderly starting their vaccines dec/Jan.  My grandma is 90 and got her 2nd dose in Jan.   Come on  hahahahah you guys are too much trump absolutely dropped the ball in 2020. This has nothing to do with Ds or Rs but complete failure.   

[HappyHawkeye]

54 minutes ago, BricksBrotha said:

I choose to give thanks for the scientist/dr's who made this happen

This. I don't get the folks that want to give Trump credit for something any president would have done under similar circumstances. Helping fund and expedite the creation of a vaccine is an absolute no brainer with zero political downside. You know what would've been even better? If he had also not downplayed the severity of the virus and helped turn common sense safety measures like masks and social distancing into a culture war about muh freedoms.

[cladner]

2 hours ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Trump expected to run vaccine distribution (perhaps the US government) like a company in the private sector. 

 

[$20 on joe vs dan]

1 hour ago, exracer327 said:

My mom, who lives in Iowa, received both doses before the end of January.  I live in NJ, where I don't know any one who received a vaccine shot until early-Feb.  

So when people say "there was no plan," I don't think we can say that is true all over the country.  Some states clearly picked up the ball (as was the apparent Trump plan) and ran with it.  Other states were reluctant to do anything with the vaccine until Biden was in office.  Cuomo and Murphy (Gov's NY and NJ) both said this.  I believe them because I saw the count of how many vaccines had been delivered to NJ in December.  But NJ apparently didn't do anything with them until February.  Then they point the finger at Trump?  *sigh* 

In the end, praise God we have vaccines.  If it wasn't for the foresight of warp speed, we will still be waiting years (5-10) for one vaccine, let alone three.  What warp speed did was took the results of phase 1 testing and instead of putting them on the bottom of the FDA approval stack, they went to the top and were processed immediately.  So what would normally have taken years before phase 2 began only took weeks.  The same for going from phase 2 to 3.  This is why the vaccines were produced so fast.  No testing was rushed, it all went at a normal speed.  The paperwork wasn't even sped up.  They just got to it much faster than they would normally. 

So can we finally move on from the blame game and just be thankful we have vaccines and the end of this cursed virus is near?

 

I think the "Warp Speed" part was signing off on MASS manufacturing BEFORE the results of all the testing.

All the other expediting steps are "No brainers" given the pandemic...taking the risk of paying for millions of doses and guaranteeing payment were new to the game.

[Alpinemaps]

This. I don't get the folks that want to give Trump credit for something any president would have done under similar circumstances. Helping fund and expedite the creation of a vaccine is an absolute no brainer with zero political downside. You know what would've been even better? If he had also not downplayed the severity of the virus and helped turn common sense safety measures like masks and social distancing into a culture war about muh freedoms.

Statements such as these confuse me. I remember In the early days of this, Trump banning travel from China (Biden called it racist), talking about it in his SOTU (the one Pelosi tore up), and Pelosi inviting people to come on down to San Francisco’s Chinatown.

Serious, not political attack here - what am I missing? Because the “optics” to me say there was at least an attempt to do *something* on Trump’s part, while the D’s downplayed it. But what am I missing?

[Brickshopper]

21 minutes ago, Alpinemaps said:

Statements such as these confuse me.

Thats the problem the Fox News crowd has in common; being EASILY CONFUSED.
If you dont get it by now nobody is going to be able to explain it to you

 

There were countries who leadership took it seriously was truthful and transparent with their citizens and did not politicize and encourage people to not wear masks  and then there was US. The proof is in the numbers compare our numbers with other countries this was due to leadership and lack their of.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Brickshopper

[$20 on joe vs dan]

there's going to be so many revisionists to what went down 2020. 

I will only give credit to those that:

1. do not cherry pick to fit a narrative
2. recognize there were many unknowns and uncertainty
3. recognize that we were unprepared at all levels (for lots of reasons)
4. the response was DYNAMIC over the year...meaning something that was right at one time was shown to be wrong and vice versa

 

[Shortbus311]

Thats the problem the Fox News crowd has in common; being EASILY CONFUSED.
If you dont get it by now nobody is going to be able to explain it to you
 
There were countries who leadership took it seriously was truthful and transparent with their citizens and did not politicize and encourage people to not wear masks  and then there was US. The proof is in the numbers compare our numbers with other countries this was due to leadership and lack their of.

And that's the problem with the left elitist... they love to look down on and insult anyone who disagrees, but yet they always claim to be so moral.

They would rather claim they want to unite the country while still calling conservatives "deplorable" "Neanderthals".

[exracer327]

57 minutes ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

I think the "Warp Speed" part was signing off on MASS manufacturing BEFORE the results of all the testing.

All the other expediting steps are "No brainers" given the pandemic...taking the risk of paying for millions of doses and guaranteeing payment were new to the game.

You are right, that was part of it - purchasing tens-of-millions of doses before they were completely tested that way they were ready to ship as soon as approval was given.  In all honesty, that was a bold move that could have backfired huge.  If none of the vaccines worked, that could have been hundreds-of-millions of dollars wasted.  I had to laugh the other day when Biden complained that the USA gov't had to purchase more doses.  Trump, Fauci, and the entire Covid taskforce said at the time they made the original purchases that was the plan because at the time they didn't know how effective any of the vaccines were going to be.

It will be interesting to see the studies in the years to come to determine what went right, what went wrong, and how in the world do we avoid a repeat of 2020. 

[lodibricks]

17 minutes ago, Brickshopper said:

Thats the problem the Fox News crowd has in common; being EASILY CONFUSED.
If you dont get it by now nobody is going to be able to explain it to you

 

There were countries who leadership took it seriously was truthful and transparent with their citizens and did not politicize and encourage people to not wear masks  and then there was US. The proof is in the numbers compare our numbers with other countries this was due to leadership and lack their of.

I think Alpine had valid points though, insulting to sidestep doesn't help. Trump was slammed at the time for the travel ban, but an unbiased person should be able to admit that that was an early attempt to curb the spread that others wouldn't have done. Whether or not that would've made a difference is another debate.

Serious question as I don't follow all the news as closely. Did Trump literally encourage people not to wear masks, or are we talking "by example" since he didn't always wear one while speaking at a podium (and probably 6ft away)? Another serious question, would those that opposite masks really change their tune depending on leadership? I don't think Biden would have convinced more people to mask up if they are firm in what they believe. I also don't believe that the shirtless viking guy would've stormed in with a mask on if Trump wore one. In this case, that's giving leadership (or lack of) too much credit.