Complaint Thread

[Sprocket77]

I'd be worried if the teacher can't get something that simple right, I thought you were going to come up with a question that was even a little bit complicated, but obviously not.

 

[Alpinemaps]

6 minutes ago, Sprocket77 said:

I'd be worried if the teacher can't get something that simple right, I thought you were going to come up with a question that was even a little bit complicated, but obviously not.

 

You've hit the nail on the head.  My wife and I haven't been a fan of this teacher since day one, even though she gets rave reviews from others.  I've gotten a "plays favorites" vibe with her, as I've heard from a variety of different parents how kids are treated/not treated.

My daughter was already asleep by the time I looked at her homework and did the digging tonight.  I need to find out for sure who helped do this problem - was it the teacher or was it a fellow student?  And, if so, why the teacher gave it a pass without marking it wrong.  Something is fishy here.

Edit to add:  This is 2nd Grade Math (my daughter is 8 years old)

[fuzzy_bricks]

2 minutes ago, Sprocket77 said:

I'd be worried if the teacher can't get something that simple right, I thought you were going to come up with a question that was even a little bit complicated, but obviously not.

The problem is the way they teach them to solve the problem.  You look at the problem and probably add 38 and 79 to get the number of boys.  They probably teach them to round the numbers up to 40 and 80, add them, then subtract three or something else.  Maybe they're supposed to use a number line or another visual aid.  It adds unnecessary steps IMO.  I read an article that said it's supposed to teach kids how to manipulate numbers and not just solve the problem, I'll have to get back to you in 10 years whether that's true or not.

[gregpj]

Simple problem if you don't use common core math and just teach "math straight up."

117 boys

196 total kids

Fewer means less than, subtraction, opposite of addition. The number of boys minus the number of girls must equal 79. Since it's the opposite, adding 38 and 79 equals the answer.

No need to round or do funny stuff.

My sons grade two math teacher asked me to stop teaching him advanced techniques for solving math. I said ok, then didn't. He's starting to solve grade five level problems at the end of grade three. Thanks but I'll keep teaching him.

[Sprocket77]

21 minutes ago, gregpj said:

Simple problem if you don't use common core math and just teach "math straight up."

117 boys

196 total kids

Fewer means less than, subtraction, opposite of addition. The number of boys minus the number of girls must equal 79. Since it's the opposite, adding 38 and 79 equals the answer.

No need to round or so funny stuff.

My sons grade two math teacher asked me to stop teaching him advanced techniques for solving math. I said ok, then didn't. He's starting to grade five level problems at the end of grade three. Thanks but I'll keep teaching him.

You crazy Canadians with your advanced maths and yes I wrote maths, so screw you 

I'm teaching my 16 mth old to count, problem is she keeps skipping all the odd numbers, might have trouble with this one 

[gregpj]

44 minutes ago, fuzzy_bricks said:

The problem is the way they teach them to solve the problem.  You look at the problem and probably add 38 and 79 to get the number of boys.  They probably teach them to round the numbers up to 40 and 80, add them, then subtract three or something else.  Maybe they're supposed to use a number line or another visual aid.  It adds unnecessary steps IMO.  I read an article that said it's supposed to teach kids how to manipulate numbers and not just solve the problem, I'll have to get back to you in 10 years whether that's true or not.

There are lots of ways to teach kids how to manipulate numbers without screwing with basic math. The results are in for provinces in Canada who've been doing this crap. Competency in math is down.

http://truthinamericaneducation.com/common-core-state-standards/look-to-canada-to-see-the-future-of-common-core-math/

My partner teaches a required course in quantitative statistics in University (for the arts, but still they need to know the basics of math). In the last 10 years she's seen the decline and bemoans it every time she has to grade tests. Now that our kids (8 and 5) are starting down this path, we understand why it's so bad.

[Alpinemaps]

The answer my daughter brought home: 41.

yes, 79-38 = 41.

Yes, there's some Common Core "stuff" for figuring it out, but in no way do I read that question as a subtraction problem.  It is clearly an addition problem.  If there are 38 fewer girls, there are 38 more boys.  79 girls and 79 boys.  Plus another 38 boys (since there are 38 more boys).

I'll report back on what I find out.

[gregpj]

2 minutes ago, Alpinemaps said:

The answer my daughter brought home: 41.

yes, 79-38 = 41.

Yes, there's some Common Core "stuff" for figuring it out, but in no way do I read that question as a subtraction problem.  It is clearly an addition problem.  If there are 38 fewer girls, there are 38 more boys.  79 girls and 79 boys.  Plus another 38 boys (since there are 38 more boys).

I'll report back on what I find out.

Who wrote down the problem? Seems to me the "teacher" might have just written down the problem wrong, or perhaps switched it up from a previous year and forgot to update the answers. Still, that's super frustrating.

Math is not hard. Telling kids it is hard makes it hard. Telling kids it's easy and then showing them you're not lying by quickly solving the problem is the best thing you can do for their confidence. You can easily brainwash  errr... show kids how easy it is if they apply themselves.

Argh, you got me all wound up.

[Migration]

6 hours ago, Alpinemaps said:

Not sure if I should direct this to Common Core Math or my daughter's second grade teacher.

This weekend, we struggled with a math problem.  I thought it went one way, but then decided it went another way.

It's not the "show your work" part that I'm annoyed with.  I understand the concepts behind what they are doing and how they have to show the work, and I understand why Common Core is set up the way it is.

No, my real issue is with the problem that she had to solve.  Just doing the problem in my head, I know the correct answer.  But the answer the teacher came up with is completely different.  I didn't cheat and look up the answer over the weekend, but now that it's come back, I looked it up; and discovered I was correct!

So I'm pretty annoyed that the teacher worked it out wrong, and is confusing my daughter.  Especially because I'm already paying for a math tutor for her.  My daughter is an advanced reader, great speller, comprehends a lot.  But math just trips her up.  I don't need her teacher confusing her even more.

So, dear reader, I put the question out there to you.  You don't have to show the work, just tell me the answers:

- 38 fewer girls attended summer camp than boys.  79 girls attended.

1. How many boys attended summer camp?
2. How many kids attended summer camp?
 

My brain works differently than most people's, to solve that I would do this...

80+80= 160 + 38 =198-2= 196 total

200-80=120-3=117 boys

that way of thinking seems overly complicated for such a simple problem, but that technique allows for doing more complex math in my head quickly without writing anything down. Used to drive my teachers bat ship crazy in school. An overly simple example figure out 78x7 in your head. I would do 80x7=560-14=546, just how my brain works. I would say that kids should be made to master the more traditional method first, then use the above method if it works for them. 

 

Not sure what the eff your kids teacher was doing.

[Bold-Arrow]

Just add 38+79... Lol = boys 

[Migration]

3 minutes ago, Bold-Arrow said:

Just add 38+79... Lol = boys 

But then you've got to carry the...

 

[Darth_Raichu]

1 hour ago, Migration said:

My brain works differently than most people's, to solve that I would do this...

80+80= 160 + 38 =198-2= 196 total

200-80=120-3=117 boys

that way of thinking seems overly complicated for such a simple problem, but that technique allows for doing more complex math in my head quickly without writing anything down. Used to drive my teachers bat ship crazy in school. An overly simple example figure out 78x7 in your head. I would do 80x7=560-14=546, just how my brain works. I would say that kids should be made to master the more traditional method first, then use the above method if it works for them. 

 

Not sure what the eff your kids teacher was doing.

I do the same trick to calculate multiplications, but not additions. It is all about which method / trick gives me answer quicker, and for my brain doing additions that way involves more steps

[Alpinemaps]

6 hours ago, gregpj said:

Who wrote down the problem? Seems to me the "teacher" might have just written down the problem wrong, or perhaps switched it up from a previous year and forgot to update the answers. Still, that's super frustrating.

Math is not hard. Telling kids it is hard makes it hard. Telling kids it's easy and then showing them you're not lying by quickly solving the problem is the best thing you can do for their confidence. You can easily brainwash  errr... show kids how easy it is if they apply themselves.

Argh, you got me all wound up.

Sorry to wind you up.   

1 hour ago, Migration said:

My brain works differently than most people's, to solve that I would do this...

80+80= 160 + 38 =198-2= 196 total

200-80=120-3=117 boys

that way of thinking seems overly complicated for such a simple problem, but that technique allows for doing more complex math in my head quickly without writing anything down. Used to drive my teachers bat ship crazy in school. An overly simple example figure out 78x7 in your head. I would do 80x7=560-14=546, just how my brain works. I would say that kids should be made to master the more traditional method first, then use the above method if it works for them. 

 

Not sure what the eff your kids teacher was doing.

I've been a big believer in Math as a "language" and alternative ways for learning how to get to the right answer.  25 years ago I was learning techniques that, to a degree, are similar to Common Core.  But, that was after I was in college, and had a firm grasp on math concepts.  Math has always come naturally to me, and I enjoy learning, so it's not a big deal to do the Common Core.

I honestly think Common Core is designed to help give a foundation to make the harder stuff easier as she goes through school.  I do see a value in it, but understand the frustration many people have with it.  The methodology to solve the second grade problems is definitely overly complicated - at this level - but if you can grasp it now for the simple stuff, it will be natural when things get more difficult.

I asked my daughter this morning who helped her with the problem, and she told me that her teacher spent 10 minutes with her.  I checked online, and the last two versions of the problem are the same problem.  (The more recent edition is posted online, my daughter's teacher is using the previous edition).

I need to ping another parent that I'm friends with to see how their son answered the question.  It could have been an honest mistake.  However, as a teacher, especially one that is working one on one with a student that is having trouble with math already - I'm going to hold you to a higher standard.  If you're not going to look at the answer key, at least take the time to do it in your head quickly, so you know what the answer is that you're supposed to reach. 

I'm going to have to have a nice conversation with her teacher.

[gregpj]

1 hour ago, Migration said:

My brain works differently than most people's, to solve that I would do this...

80+80= 160 + 38 =198-2= 196 total

200-80=120-3=117 boys

that way of thinking seems overly complicated for such a simple problem, but that technique allows for doing more complex math in my head quickly without writing anything down. Used to drive my teachers bat ship crazy in school. An overly simple example figure out 78x7 in your head. I would do 80x7=560-14=546, just how my brain works. I would say that kids should be made to master the more traditional method first, then use the above method if it works for them. 

 

Not sure what the eff your kids teacher was doing.

Your post really got me thinking... there is nothing wrong with what you did since it gives you the right answer!! In fact, it follows concepts of "estimation" in math. It is something that is part of traditional math - quickly estimating the result of something that doesn't need a precise answer.

And most important: The way your brain does math still requires knowledge of core concepts like "carry the 1, or borrow 1" which they no longer teach. That's one of two fundamental problems I have with the new wave math.

1) Certain basic skills that are no longer taught when they could AUGMENT the ideas of common core math.

2) At my kids school, learning in groups is encouraged which does ZERO to help the stronger or weaker students. The strong students do the problem for the weaker kids, but the problem has to be simple enough for the weaker kids to understand. There is no benefit to either group.

[exciter1]

My son struggles in math with the new concepts as well.  We don't work with him as intensely has we should.  We'll have a tutor around this Summer again to help keep him in tune.

[Phil B]

I'm working with my kids (soon-to-be-5th-graders) on math regularly. One is very comfortable with math, the other has the ability but easily panics. What I find in the current curriculum (Common Core) is that they have all the right intentions, but don't always hammer the "why?" behind the various approaches. There is a lot of "estimate" questions out there, but no proper guidance as to why you would estimate and how to do proper estimating, e.g. to what precision do you round up? Also, I apply tricks like @Migration mentioned often when computing stuff (79x15 = (80-1)x15 = 80x15 - 1x15 ....) and while they are being taught the distributive, commutative and associative properties of addition and multiplication, these properties are not properly used in scenarios where they could help kids.

[Darth_Raichu]

@Alpinemaps There is a good chance the teacher just had not had her cup of coffee before engaging your daughter.

As much as I detest common core, that looked more like a teacher problem than problem with calculation method.  Even if your daughter got frustrated and wrote 41 on her own (sorry, but it could happen), how did the teacher just pass that as correct answer???

6 hours ago, Alpinemaps said:

The answer my daughter brought home: 41.

yes, 79-38 = 41.

Yes, there's some Common Core "stuff" for figuring it out, but in no way do I read that question as a subtraction problem.  It is clearly an addition problem.  If there are 38 fewer girls, there are 38 more boys.  79 girls and 79 boys.  Plus another 38 boys (since there are 38 more boys).

I'll report back on what I find out.

 

[Phil B]

3 minutes ago, gregpj said:

And most important: The way your brain does math still requires knowledge of core concepts like "carry the 1, or borrow 1" which they no longer teach. That's one of two fundamental problems I have with the new wave math.

 

Hmmm ... my kids (one is in Accelerated, one was in Accelerated but dropped back to normal Math to deal with confidence issues) know very well how to carry and borrow in additions and subtractions. That has been hammered into them quite well at school, since 2nd/3rd grade I believe. This is Common Core Math in Ohio.

[Alpinemaps]

@Alpinemaps There is a good chance the teacher just had not had her cup of coffee before engaging your daughter.

As much as I detest common core, that looked more like a teacher problem than problem with calculation method.  Even if your daughter got frustrated and wrote 41 on her own (sorry, but it could happen), how did the teacher just pass that as correct answer???

 

I agree. There are two issues here - one is that my daughter is struggling in math and that's fine. That's why we have a tutor (her tutor would have done this with her last week but my daughter was out with the stomach flu).

The other issue, and the one I'm concerned about today, is that 41 was the correct answer. This is the answer that the teacher and my daughter spent 10 minutes working out.

On the one hand, yes thy did the subtraction correctly, but I'm more concerned about the comprehension of what needed to be done in the problem.

I'm open to the idea that it was an honest mistake. Just want to make sure.

[Sprocket77]

4 minutes ago, exciter1 said:

My son struggles in math with the new concepts as well.  We don't work with him as intensely has we should.  We'll have a tutor around this Summer again to help keep him in tune.

You mean you haven't got him working out the net profit on each sale when ebay, paypal and shipping fees are taken into account? 

On a serious note, a while back someone mentioned how they helped with their kids geography knowledge by having them put pins on a map of every location they had a sale in. I think bringing the kids into the numerical side of this business would be a good way of teaching them maths and getting to help with Dad's hobby, you do enough sums without making it work and it becomes second nature..

Here's my 16 month old daughter helping with the business. She wasn't impressed with how I was storing the Mixels, so moved them all to the other side of the room 

[gregpj]

10 minutes ago, Phil B said:

Hmmm ... my kids (one is in Accelerated, one was in Accelerated but dropped back to normal Math to deal with confidence issues) know very well how to carry and borrow in additions and subtractions. That has been hammered into them quite well at school, since 2nd/3rd grade I believe. This is Common Core Math in Ohio.

Well then it's wonderful they do. That was one of the things my kids second grade teacher asked me to stop doing... (it was a 2/3 split also). It was "too advanced" for them, so perhaps they save it for grade four!

I think it comes do what a lot have been saying .. Common Core isn't the problem, it's that some teachers take the traditional goodness and throw it away solely in favor of these new age techniques. Oh well, being a math nerd I foresee my kids being math nerds (or else :)).

[Phil B]

Okay since we're complaining about teachers and curriculae, here's my pet peeve (especially towards my kids' Accelerated Math/Reading teacher btw): If you want kids to do an activity, please take time to do it in school. What's with all the homework, especially stuff that was given with very little explanation? I come from Europe, and had a childhood full of wonderful experiences playing outside with the neighborhood kids, building forts, etc. Apart from a twice-a-year presentation starting in 4th grade, homework didn't crop up until I was in 7th grade. My kids have at least an hour of homework each day, on top of an already pretty packed sports schedule (which they both love and aren't forced into) - they hardly have time to be a kid and goof around, outside, or even inside, playing and building LEGO. (See how I tied it in with this forum there? ;-) ).

It's as if the teacher quickly explains the concept in a few minutes, gives them 4 pages of exercises to take home, and then expects it to be ingrained knowledge the next day. So Daddy has to spend time in the evening tutoring his kids because the paid teacher didn't take the time.

[Darth_Raichu]

20 minutes ago, gregpj said:

Your post really got me thinking... there is nothing wrong with what you did since it gives you the right answer!! In fact, it follows concepts of "estimation" in math. It is something that is part of traditional math - quickly estimating the result of something that doesn't need a precise answer.

And most important: The way your brain does math still requires knowledge of core concepts like "carry the 1, or borrow 1" which they no longer teach. That's one of two fundamental problems I have with the new wave math.

1) Certain basic skills that are no longer taught when they could AUGMENT the ideas of common core math.

2) At my kids school, learning in groups is encouraged which does ZERO to help the stronger or weaker students. The strong students do the problem for the weaker kids, but the problem has to be simple enough for the weaker kids to understand. There is no benefit to either group.

Yes. On one hand I understand what they tried to do with common core, they wanted kids to understand how to do math, instead of memorize steps to do problems.  But on the other hand, there are still fundamentals that should be memorized to help with understanding math.

[gregpj]

16 minutes ago, Phil B said:

Okay since we're complaining about teachers and curriculae, here's my pet peeve (especially towards my kids' Accelerated Math/Reading teacher btw): If you want kids to do an activity, please take time to do it in school. What's with all the homework, especially stuff that was given with very little explanation? I come from Europe, and had a childhood full of wonderful experiences playing outside with the neighborhood kids, building forts, etc. Apart from a twice-a-year presentation starting in 4th grade, homework didn't crop up until I was in 7th grade. My kids have at least an hour of homework each day, on top of an already pretty packed sports schedule (which they both love and aren't forced into) - they hardly have time to be a kid and goof around, outside, or even inside, playing and building LEGO. (See how I tied it in with this forum there? ;-) ).

It's as if the teacher quickly explains the concept in a few minutes, gives them 4 pages of exercises to take home, and then expects it to be ingrained knowledge the next day. So Daddy has to spend time in the evening tutoring his kids because the paid teacher didn't take the time.

My kids are currently in school here in France, the older one (grade three) gets homework every day. It has consisted of:

- Reviewing a list of words for spelling (around 20 words that I help him learn).
- (or) Doing 4 simple math problems.
- (or) Reading a short story.

It's an average of 5-15 minutes of homework. On the weekend it's usually 2 items. Over the spring break (2 weeks) it was reviewing words, 16 math problems (4 of each basic type) and reading a short story. Very reasonable if you ask me and teaches an important concept - that homework is a coming.
 

[redghostx]

Perhaps the reason the teacher gets the answer wrong is because he/she is a math teacher and failed English. This helps explain the poor comprehension of the problem.

I am enjoying reading all of the replies on this subject.