LEGO S@H "Black Listing": Did you ever receive this re-sale warning from Shop at Home?

[comicblast]

There is an old Chinese proverb that basically says "give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."

 

With few exceptions, when people have asked me things on this site it has been of the "give me a fish" variety. In other words, I've been asked "tell me what product to buy and where to buy it and when to sell it", along with a host of other questions that I likely don't know the specific answers to. That's basically begging and it's not what I want to do nor do I want to encourage it. 

I understand that. It has been relatively tiresome to have to reply to a few members a week who ask the where when and how, when they could have found it in a thread, or read a few discussions. Maybe if there was one big thread for questions like this, it would reduce the amount of new threads that require replies. That way, the questioner could get a faster answer, and learn more than he originally asked.

[Jeff Mack]

Thanks...I know that I can choose whether or not I read anything here, and I've made that choice many times. That's certainly not the issue. The issue I have is that I don't want to be associated with a community that behaves that way, or encourages that type of behavior. I know this is the Internet and it's largely the wild west, but some of the people that have posted some of the absurd nonsense we see from time-to-time really need to have their heads checked.

 

Just to be clear, I don't think that this is from lack of policing from the Macks, or that they should even set or attempt to enforce any policy around this behavior. This is largely something the community has to decide to do on its own.

 

 

First I feel bad that this thread was hi jacked and i hope to get back to it.  I just want to say that I don't think your concept of announcing that you are choosing to not participate in the forum as much because it is not worth your time or upsets you or whatever.  I don't think that helps the community and is part of the problem.  So you are helping to add to the problem instead of trying to fix it.  It just doesn't fix itself.

 

When StarCityBrickCompany came to us about the idea of "private forums", I told him that at one time, I was a new programmer, didn't know anything about it, so what was I?  I was one of those annoying new posters asking a ton of basic questions.  I am sure the advanced guys hated me.  But as time went on, and I kept educating myself, I became a help to the new annoying people that I once was.  My point is, there will always be new people that ask questions and just want answers.  But what help can they give if they don't know better.  Back in the day, even if I wanted to help, most of the time I needed to know the answer myself.  It takes time.  Just like the other guys just said, its a new forum, not even 2 years old.  There is a large mix of different levels.  All forums suffer from these issues and it takes time to get it there.  The mods have been doing a great job and in my opinion the forum has grown quite a bit in the last year in maturity. 

 

You can post and read as much as you want.  I really don't want it to irritate you or stress you out.  Hopefully from time to time you benefit from a good sale on set you are looking for.  Some of these non givers may become one in time and educate you on something going on. In the end, it usually all averages itself out.

 

If you find people looking for that quick answer, kindly reply "That has been asked before, you can find it in a blog/forum/etc"  I do that myself to the new people that come on and say "I need to know what to buy".  I tell them to search the site, there is a ton of information here and if you have specific questions post them.

[emes]

Your points are well taken. As Ed previously suggested I encourage you to keep participating the same way you have been doing in the past, as the more quality posters we have in the forum, the more we will attract in the future. This is still a pretty young forum, give it some time and I am sure it will keep getting better.

 

Hope to keep reading your comments, they are always very useful.

 

 

This is something that improves over time with a maturing forum.  We are getting there and the site forum is much improved from a year ago.  The more intelligent forum members we have posting, the better example will be set for others, thus improving quality.  I would like for you to be part of the solution and improve the quality of the forum.  

 

 

It's too bad you feel this way.  I have always valued your posts and could count on an intelligent reply.  To be quite honest, I'm disappointed in your stance on this matter.  I have heard many intelligent and informative members say they just "lurk" for fear of the mentally challenged on the forums.  There is an old saying...

 

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

 

Well, let me convert this to something that is related to any social forum...

 

The only thing necessary for the triumph of forum spammers and spazzes is for intelligent men to "lurk."

 

See my point?  With all due respect, the only way to make a forum better is having the intelligent members participate in discussions.  By lurking and purposely withholding your views, you are no better than the  "oh-cool-I-can-make-money-with-LEGO" people you complain about.  They offer nothing and neither do you.  

 

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. It's a different way to look at things and I'm open to that. Perhaps I just need a quick break.

 

Nothing I've mentioned here is unique to this site. To some extent all forums experience this, and they continue to change over time. The key I think is that every stakeholder, and we all are stakeholders, need to get something of value out of the site. When the negative overwhelms the value, that's when people start seeking alternatives.

 

Now, to get this back on topic:

 

If you are going to order from LEGO Shop at Home, even if you haven't been banned, mask your IP and MAC addresses. Have multiple accounts that really are "unique".

 

Also, I can pretty much tell you exactly how they're identifying who's a reseller and who's not. It most likely has nothing to do with specific number of sets ordered. What they are doing is looking at your zip code and comparing your purchases to an average buyer from that same area. They allow a certain amount of variance, but if the dollar amount of your purchases are off the charts, your account is showing up on a report that someone reviews, and then makes a decision about whether or not to ban you. They could be using zip code or some other kind of geographic identifier, it really doesn't matter..they are profiling you and comparing what you do to what an average customer like you does.

 

We buy from all kinds of places, and I can tell you that TLG is not the only company that does this. I'm in North Carolina right now about to fly home. There is a company here that I work very closely with. There's a person that works at that company that I've turned onto buying and selling some things, and she's kind of eased into it. Except, the other day she decided to buy 20 of something (not from LEGO) and her account was immediately flagged as being a reseller and the order canceled. She's a smart person, but she just wasn't thinking clearly.

 

So yeah, the people out buying 10, 20, 50 whatever sets over a short period of time, even across different transactions are going to look suspicious.

 

You have to be much much smarter than people are generally being about this stuff if you are going to buy significant amounts online, whether it's LEGO, Target, Amazon, whatever. There's ways around all of these reseller flagging things, you just have to think through your process and never once vary from what you're doing.

[willy431]

Lego online, lego stores, lego resellers with real agreements are all COMPETITORS..an investor who pulls out a set 5 years later..that is no longer in print...then sells it..on eBay. There is no difference there between a reseller and an investor? Oh well...not going to argue...I see a big difference. Lego cares if licenced resellers compete against them with new sets sets in real time...which is why they sign agreements....why would they care in 5 years?

Take minecraft. They are pissed that resellers buy out the stock and resell for more money competing against lego stores and online if there are any interruptions in supply. In 5 years if you pull out 50 of them...why would lego care?

That is why there are also exclusivity contracts. Time is a huge component

[redcell]

I think it should be noted that there is a huge difference between a reseller and an investor. I agree LEGO is looking to protect their profits from resellers. Investors however have no negative effects on their profits whatsoever.

 

How is an "investor" different from a reseller?  If someone is buying Lego sets for the purpose of reselling them later at a profit, they're a reseller pure and simple.

[stephen_rockefeller]

How is an "investor" different from a reseller?  If someone is buying Lego sets for the purpose of reselling them later at a profit, they're a reseller pure and simple.

Scroll up if you need the answer I already explained the difference between the two when it comes to LEGO protecting their profits.

[redcell]

Lego online, lego stores, lego resellers with real agreements are all COMPETITORS..an investor who pulls out a set 5 years later..that is no longer in print...then sells it..on eBay. There is no difference there between a reseller and an investor? Oh well...not going to argue...I see a big difference. Lego cares if licenced resellers compete against them with new sets sets in real time...which is why they sign agreements....why would they care in 5 years?

Take minecraft. They are pissed that resellers buy out the stock and resell for more money competing against lego stores and online if there are any interruptions in supply. In 5 years if you pull out 50 of them...why would lego care?

That is why there are also exclusivity contracts. Time is a huge component

 

Do you really think that Lego is banning people because they think that they are going to buy sets at RRP and resell those sets before EOL in competition with Lego and other authorized resellers?  That makes absolutely no sense since anyone pursuing that strategy would have to be able to sell those sets for more than they paid for them in order to profit.  As for why TLG would care about what happens after a set EOL, no one knows, but the idea that TLG is doing this to disrupt sellers who would compete for pre-EOL sales is nonsensical in the extreme.

[Ed Mack]

Simply put, any LEGO set sold on the secondary market, at any time, can take business away from LEGO and the other retailers selling current sets. Most people have limited funds to spend on LEGO sets and must choose between old sets on eBay or new sets on LEGO S@H, Target or Amazon. Money spent on the older set is money taken away from the new LEGO set money pool. Of course resellers do buy a ton of sets, so it might balance out, but LEGO might view any reseller as a threat.

The reseller does have a very important ally in all of this...eBay. eBay makes a ton of money from reselling LEGO sets. Just a thought...

[What_does_the_future_hold]

We can debate what is this or that (but for the record I agree that there is no difference between investor or reseller) but here's the bottom line for Lego. Sure the "reseller" will affect current market with current product. But the "investor" actually has the same or more chance of affecting Lego because of the fact they are supposedly ONLY selling retired sets and here's why. In the here and now market, the reseller actually has to work harder and faces more competition not only from Lego but all the other big box stores and other resellers and they're all fighting for the same dollar because the customer can go a million places and find it. In those situations Lego's odds are better because they have the inventory and pricing to sway a customer their way and/or they at least move a current unit because it went to a retailer where it was sold. The way I see it, the investor stands more chance of hurting them because now a customer may be making a choice not between pricing or loyalty to a store but between the old version or the new version of set and that means NONE of the stores that offer the current set stand a chance if that customer decides to go with the older set. In this scenario, Lego loses out completely because it hasn't been able to sell anything through it's curent channels.

[stephen_rockefeller]

Simply, any LEGO set sold on the secondary market, at any time, can take business away from LEGO and the other retailers selling current sets. Most people have limited funds to spend on LEGO sets and must choose between old sets on eBay or new sets on LEGO S@H, Target or Amazon. Money spent on the older set is money taken away from the new LEGO set money pool. Of course resellers do buy a ton of sets, so it might balance out, but LEGO might view any reseller as a threat.

The reseller does have a very important ally in all of this...eBay. eBay makes a ton of money from reselling LEGO sets. Just a thought...

You said EOL sets "can" take away from LEGO sales and that might be possible but I personally don't think this is true.

[stephen_rockefeller]

Also I don't think it is safe to assume that if a person wasnt buying that desired EOL set that they would spend that money on a new set from LEGO. They could spend that money on any number of things.

[Ed Mack]

You said EOL sets "can" take away from LEGO sales and that might be possible but I personally don't think this is true.

Resellers give people an option. Without resellers, there is only one option...LEGO and the other large retailers who sell product for LEGO. I'm just trying to make sense of this and this is where my logic is taking me...

[redcell]

False......times frame does matter to LEGO. If I am selling my sets while they are still available from LEGO then I am their competiton. If I am selling after the set is retired then am I still their competition?? Nope! You are saying investors and resellers are the same because they both sell sets. To be honest I'm confused why TLG even cares about resellers.......they got paid originally regardless of how many times a sets changes hands through a sale. No one is making Lego bricks in their laboratory and then reselling them.

 

What makes absolutely no sense about what you're saying is that no one who buys a set from LEGO Shop at Home today can turn around tomorrow and compete with LEGO Shop at Home to sell that set because that set will always be available at LEGO Shop at Home at a lower price point than the reseller can offer (assuming that they're not consciously trying to lose money for some reason).  If LEGO Shop at Home was doing all this because it was worried that its customers were also its competitors, there is no way that LEGO Shop at Home would be as successful as it is because it would not understand basic economics.  The reasons for TLG's policy against resellers does not have to do with concerns about pre-EOL sales competition.

[Ed Mack]

Also I don't think it is safe to assume that if a person wasnt buying that desired EOL set that they would spend that money on a new set from LEGO. They could spend that money on any number of things.

Let's just say that a person was buying only LEGO sets for arguments sake...they would have no other choice but to buy a new set if they wanted to invest, build or collect LEGO sets if resellers weren't available to buy from.

[What_does_the_future_hold]

I would

 

What makes absolutely no sense about what you're saying is that no one who buys a set from LEGO Shop at Home today can turn around tomorrow and compete with LEGO Shop at Home to sell that set because that set will always be available at LEGO Shop at Home at a lower price point than the reseller can offer (assuming that they're not consciously trying to lose money for some reason).  If LEGO Shop at Home was doing all this because it was worried that its customers were also its competitors, there is no way that LEGO Shop at Home would be as successful as it is because it would not understand basic economics.  The reasons for TLG's policy against resellers does not have to do with concerns about pre-EOL sales competition.

I would agree with you BUT, you can in fact buy a set and compete tomorrow and here's how and why they care. Say I go buy a Wolverine Chopper set for $20 from LEGO Shop at Home or the Lego store. Then I go home and crack it open, build the figs, build the helicopter and then list each individual minifig on Ebay as well as the copter. Now there's going to be some kid or adult out there who ONLY cares about the Deadpool and doesn't want to buy the set just to get it so they'll pay me $10 for it, and so on with the other parts of the set until I've made $35 on it AND I've kept Lego from selling 5 of those sets because someone got each piece they wanted without having to buy the whole set. Make sense???

[chinothegeeko]

I would

 

I would agree with you BUT, you can in fact buy a set and compete tomorrow and here's how and why they care. Say I go buy a Wolverine Chopper set for $20 from LEGO Shop at Home or the Lego store. Then I go home and crack it open, build the figs, build the helicopter and then list each individual minifig on Ebay as well as the copter. Now there's going to be some kid or adult out there who ONLY cares about the Deadpool and doesn't want to buy the set just to get it so they'll pay me $10 for it, and so on with the other parts of the set until I've made $35 on it AND I've kept Lego from selling 5 of those sets because someone got each piece they wanted without having to buy the whole set. Make sense???

Great example!

[emes]

Guys, what TLG is doing here is not new, and it's not unique. Companies do this all the time.

 

The reason an organization does this is because they perceive the unauthorized reseller to pose some kind of threat to their primary market. Whether their perception is accurate or not is another story, but it's really irrelevant because perception often becomes reality, and companies take action on that perception.

 

With all of this stuff, regardless of what you're buying and selling, work your hardest to make every transaction appear to be an average, typical transaction, and you'll never have an issue with being banned.

 

TLG is doing this because they perceive resellers as a threat. This discussion should shift from "why does TLG do this" to what are some ways that we can collectively work around this.

 

Reward cards, VIP programs, etc.. are great because they usually get you free things or a discount, but if handled inappropriately they also give the retailer an easy way to identify your spending patterns and an easy way to flush out resellers.

 

Also, not sure I'd be posting my eBay/Amazon id on sites like this, nor would I make my handle the same as my eBay ID, nor add a link to an eBay store. You never know exactly what extent companies will go to when their market is threatened, and all they'd have to do is buy one item from you and they have confirmation that you're reselling NISB items, along with your name and address. They could easily take this to an extent where people are banned based on address that never even purchased from LEGO Shop at Home.

[Anakinisvader]

I would

 

I would agree with you BUT, you can in fact buy a set and compete tomorrow and here's how and why they care. Say I go buy a Wolverine Chopper set for $20 from LEGO Shop at Home or the Lego store. Then I go home and crack it open, build the figs, build the helicopter and then list each individual minifig on Ebay as well as the copter. Now there's going to be some kid or adult out there who ONLY cares about the Deadpool and doesn't want to buy the set just to get it so they'll pay me $10 for it, and so on with the other parts of the set until I've made $35 on it AND I've kept Lego from selling 5 of those sets because someone got each piece they wanted without having to buy the whole set. Make sense???

Well said.

 

EVERY dollar spent on ANY toy at ANY time is competition to LEGO.  All toy companies are fighting for the same dollars (or any currency from any county you wish to insert).  When someone sells something LEGO, as you stated, this is direct competition for LEGO's dollar.  This is money spent somewhere else that TLG feels should be their cut.  I understand why TLG is trying to limit resellers, I just don't think its going to help their cause.  Too many other avenues to making money on LEGO's product. 

[Anakinisvader]

 

 

Also, not sure I'd be posting my eBay/Amazon id on sites like this, nor would I make my handle the same as my eBay ID, nor a link to an eBay store. You never know exactly what extent companies will go to when their market is threatened, and all they'd have to do is buy one item from you and they have confirmation that you're reselling NISB items, along with your name and address. They could easily take this to an extent where people are banned based on address that never even purchased from LEGO Shop at Home.

 

Good point, luckily I only purchase about 1% of my inventory from them.  They can ban me all they want, won't hurt a bit. 

[pat_teeth_hurt]

This thread has lots of opinions and little facts or actual experiences. Nothing wrong with opinions but when threads get this long - I skip over them and get to those providing facts of actual experiences. Thanks to the original poster of this thread and the few who added their personal experiences to validate their comments. Perhaps we can add some filter to have facts appear only for those not wanting to read through all the opinions. This is an opinion comment but also a suggestion for the site.

[stephen_rockefeller]

Well said.

 

EVERY dollar spent on ANY toy at ANY time is competition to LEGO.  All toy companies are fighting for the same dollars (or any currency from any county you wish to insert).  When someone sells something LEGO, as you stated, this is direct competition for LEGO's dollar.  This is money spent somewhere else that TLG feels should be their cut.  I understand why TLG is trying to limit resellers, I just don't think its going to help their cause.  Too many other avenues to making money on LEGO's product.

YEP! The only way they will stop reselling completely is to go out of business. They are just being greedy I think. So let's say I buy a set from Lego. At that time they got their money. If I choose to sell it that is one less set they sold because that person bought it from me and not them. But they got their money originally so what is that besides just plain ol greed?? They are mad because they only got money for one set and not two. That's how I see it anyway.....is this wrong?

[justafrog]

To veer slightly (but still on topic), what about PAB?

 

Are those of us buying PAB for resale in danger when we hit a certain purchase amount? And what's an educated guess as to what that purchase amount might be? My intent was to buy 6 large cups at a time (or about 30 to 50 cups per month at four different Lego stores but on the same VIP account - the six at a time just because that gets me over $75 for the freebie).

 

Do I risk a ban and keep on trucking until they do, or try to fly a little more under the radar (although the employees will no doubt start to recognize me, I'm not an easily forgettable frog, sadly...) and not use VIP at all and just pay cash?

[stephen_rockefeller]

This thread has lots of opinions and little facts or actual experiences. Nothing wrong with opinions but when threads get this long - I skip over them and get to those providing facts of actual experiences. Thanks to the original poster of this thread and the few who added their personal experiences to validate their comments. Perhaps we can add some filter to have facts appear only for those not wanting to read through all the opinions. This is an opinion comment but also a suggestion for the site.

98% of this forum is opinion.......besides who would be the one to differentiate between fact and opinion????

[ExoBro94]

You said EOL sets "can" take away from LEGO sales and that might be possible but I personally don't think this is true.

 

They can and most certainly do. LEGO would much rather have two people buy a set from them when a set is in production than one person buying a set and selling it to another after it is retired. 

[emes]

YEP! The only way they will stop reselling completely is to go out of business. They are just being greedy I think. So let's say I buy a set from Lego. At that time they got their money. If I choose to sell it that is one less set they sold because that person bought it from me and not them. But they got their money originally so what is that besides just plain ol greed?? They are mad because they only got money for one set and not two. That's how I see it anyway.....is this wrong?

 

I would look at it more as the buyer having an alternative. If the reseller hadn't been there, then the thinking goes that the buyer has to select an alternative, and that alternative might be to buy another set from LEGO. Any company controls their market by limiting alternatives and by making alternatives less attractive.

 

In a sense all for-profit companies are greedy. For-profit companies are designed to make money, so I don't see greed as being necessarily a unique characteristic of this for-profit company compared to any other for-profit company, or compared to a reseller.