Star Wars: Rebels

[Darth_Raichu]

2 minutes ago, Vinetu said:

We must not have watched the same episode then. If one Force push qualifies for "kicking butt", then Yoda seriously owned Palpatine. She dictated the rhythm, lead him away from Ezra and Kanan. His mission was a total failure, he lost three inquisitors. And will probably get quite a bill from Sith Clothing Co. for repairing that helmet...

Sure, she learned all of  those moves from the Master himself, just like Yoda let Palpatine pushed him down that senate pod so he could run away escape spend the next 19 years plotting a new way to defeat the empire 

[thoroakenfelder]

1 hour ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Yep, we all saw DV kicked her butt when Ezra & Kanan were busy getting the Sith holocron out of the superweapon 

 

13 minutes ago, Vinetu said:

We must not have watched the same episode then. If one Force push qualifies for "kicking butt", then Yoda seriously owned Palpatine. She dictated the rhythm, led him away from Ezra and Kanan. His mission was a total failure, he lost three inquisitors. And will probably get quite a bill from Sith Clothing Co. for repairing that helmet...

[Vinetu]

3 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Sure, she learned all of  those moves from the Master himself, just like Yoda let Palpatine pushed him down that senate pod so he could run away escape spend the next 19 years plotting a new way to defeat the empire 

I think she had time to learn some on her own in 16 or so years time. And I was actually referring to the Push Yoda gave Palpatine in the office, so you basically just corroborated my point...

Far from wanting to demean Vador, he was a power to be reckoned with, people just need to start seeing that AS was so much more than him, it's AS, not Vader, that ultimately defeated the emperor. So Vader is not any kind of über warrior, he could have easily lost to Ahsoka who grew substantially since leaving the Order.

[Darth_Raichu]

3 minutes ago, Vinetu said:

I think she had time to learn some on her own in 16 or so years time. And I was actually referring to the Push Yoda gave Palpatine in the office, so you basically just corroborated my point...

Far from wanting to demean Vador, he was a power to be reckoned with, people just need to start seeing that AS was so much more than him, it's AS, not Vader, that ultimately defeated the emperor. So Vader is not any kind of über warrior, he could have easily lost to Ahsoka who grew substantially since leaving the Order.

Of course it was AS who defeated the Emperor.  Just in case anyone missed that, Lucas made it painfully obvious with the NNNOOOOOOOOOO!!! 

So Ahsoka whooped DV's butt and let him leave by himself...  What happened to the "I won't leave you"?  She may be powerful but such a liar

 

[Vinetu]

Of course it was AS who defeated the Emperor.  Just in case anyone missed that, Lucas made it painfully obvious with the NNNOOOOOOOOOO!!! 

So Ahsoka whooped DV's butt and let him leave by himself...  What happened to the "I won't leave you"?  She may be powerful but such a liar

 

Well, as Filoni himself said it in that interview, what happened when temple door closed is anyone's guess. Ahsoka could have had a follow up dicussion with him after putting him out of business and realized that she couldn't help him at that point. Or realized that she needs to understand him better in order to save him. We see her descend into the darkness, archetypal much? Heroes who descend into the underworld to save loved ones are aplenty in all mythologies of the world. Let's wait and see where her journey leads her... But I'm positive we haven't seen the last od her.

[Darth_Raichu]

2 minutes ago, Vinetu said:

Well, as Filoni himself said it in that interview, what happened when temple door closed is anyone's guess. Ahsoka could have had a follow up dicussion with him after putting him out of business and realized that she couldn't help him at that point. Or realized that she needs to understand him better in order to save him. We see her descend into the darkness, archetypal much? Heroes who descend into the underworld to save loved ones are aplenty in all mythologies of the world. Let's wait and see where her journey leads her... But I'm positive we haven't seen the last od her.

So let me get this straight, Ahsoka defeated DV and then just let him go?  The guy who killed a temple full of younglings without a thought and whatever destruction he did after movie 3 ended. Seriously?  If that was her character then I could not be a fan of her

[jaylay]

Um guys, you all are forgetting that in the middle of their heated light saber battle a huge explosion occurred probably right next to them. Guaranteed they were rudely interrupted!! They're probably both reeling from the blast and got thrown in opposite directions.

[Darth_Raichu]

2 hours ago, jaylay said:

Um guys, you all are forgetting that in the middle of their heated light saber battle a huge explosion occurred probably right next to them. Guaranteed they were rudely interrupted!! They're probably both reeling from the blast and got thrown in opposite directions.

No way! Ahsoka was so strong she did not need any blast to defeat Vader  

[Jeffrey_Dollars]

10 hours ago, Vinetu said:

"Let her live"? You folks can be funnily presumptuous at times... What if he had his a$$ handed to him? He certainly wasn't coming too springy out of that fight... And we saw what Ahsoka was capable of.

He is the chosen one, whose force ability is in its prime. I don't think he got his a$$ handed to him by a "part-time" jedi who was once his apprentice. I think everyone who thinks Ahsoka bested Vader missed this part of the interview with the shows creator  

 "I mean, Vader is hard to top. Something George is pretty adamant of all the time was that Vader, you know… You never want to do anything to diminish him"

.... or is my understanding of the word diminish inaccurate? 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Jeffrey_Dollars

[jeff_14]

Just now, Jeffrey_Dollars said:

He is the chosen one, whose force ability is in its prime. I don't think he got his a$$ handed to him by a "part-time" jedi who was once his apprentice. I think everyone who thinks Ahsoka bested Vader missed this part of the interview with the shows creator  

 "I mean, Vader is hard to top. Something George is pretty adamant of all the time was that Vader, you know… You never want to do anything to diminish him" .... or is my understanding of the word diminish inaccurate? 

Exactly. First, the fight is controlled by Vader. Ashoka runs at him for the first swing, and again when he's focused on Ezra, otherwise it's Vader who controls and is the aggressor. Ahsoka is basically trying to survive, not win. This episode is the best fight we've ever seen between Vader and someone remotely close to his skill and power level, in any media. Only the Kenobi fight in Episode III compares. The New Hope fight was weak, in Empire he was holding back because he didn't want to kill Luke, and in Jedi his heart wasn't in it. This was Vader as we've always imagined him and wanted to see. Ahsoka did very well, but she was never going to win unless Anakin resurfaced. 

The entire point of Vader is that he's the baddest of the bad. There's a reason he's considered the top screen villain in history. No one can beat him unless he allows it. Even the Emperor knew Vader was more powerful than he was. The Emperor is only on top because of skillful manipulation. You can't undermine that characterization by having any one Jedi/Force wielder beat him, let alone someone who probably hasn't had to fight anyone with even basic Jedi skills in 15 years like Ahsoka. I'm sure Ahsoka could stand a chance against anyone else. This isn't to minimize how good she is. The point is that Vader cannot be beaten. You can survive him as Ezra and Kanan did the first time they fought, and as Ahsoka seems to have done here (although that is very open to debate as we don't really know what was going into that cave at the end) but that's it. Despite a good fight and a massive explosion, Vader walked away.

[jeff_14]

8 hours ago, Vinetu said:

I think she had time to learn some on her own in 16 or so years time. And I was actually referring to the Push Yoda gave Palpatine in the office, so you basically just corroborated my point...

Far from wanting to demean Vador, he was a power to be reckoned with, people just need to start seeing that AS was so much more than him, it's AS, not Vader, that ultimately defeated the emperor. So Vader is not any kind of über warrior, he could have easily lost to Ahsoka who grew substantially since leaving the Order.

Vader is an uber warrior. That's exactly what he is. Anakin didn't defeat the Emperor with any superior martial arts moves or fighting technique. All that allowed that to happen was him being able to take an electrical beating for 5 seconds at the cost of his life. Very noble, but that's literally a once in a lifetime move. You don't get to do a subsequent fight with that fighting style. 

[exciter1]

5 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

Vader is an uber warrior. That's exactly what he is. Anakin didn't defeat the Emperor with any superior martial arts moves or fighting technique. All that allowed that to happen was him being able to take an electrical beating for 5 seconds at the cost of his life. Very noble, but that's literally a once in a lifetime move. You don't get to do a subsequent fight with that fighting style. 

Geek out, here's pages on pages on pages of discussion about "The Will Of The Force".

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-will-of-the-force.50021232/

[Darth_Raichu]

14 minutes ago, exciter1 said:

Geek out, here's pages on pages on pages of discussion about "The Will Of The Force".

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-will-of-the-force.50021232/

Or as RedLetterMedia put it "George Lucas' rushed scripts"  

[jeff_14]

13 minutes ago, exciter1 said:

Geek out, here's pages on pages on pages of discussion about "The Will Of The Force".

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-will-of-the-force.50021232/

I read some of that and then got out as it got into circular arguments. I see the will of the force as like macro-economics/or nature as a whole. It ensures the eco-system itself is functioning properly as a whole, and leaves the every day choices to people. It was the will of the force to manifest Anakin to counteract the too powerful and growing dark side, but it was Anakin's actions that determined whether that would happen earlier (PT) or later (Return of the Jedi). The force doesn't care when it happens, just that it does before things tip too far. Sort of like how some argue that nature's response to so much environmental abuse by humans is the wild weather and calamities that thin the herd. 

[exciter1]

I really just think Ahsoka gave in and wasn't going to leave her master during a perilous confrontation with him.  This was the time and it may have sealed her fate.

This is pretty wild here, Captain Rex in "Return of the Jedi"?

http://www.slashfilm.com/captain-rex-in-return-of-the-jedi/

[jeff_14]

5 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Or as RedLetterMedia put it "George Lucas' rushed scripts"  

I don't think there was anything rushed about them. On paper, the PT is in fact more intricate and well conceived than the OT, which does come across as more ad hoc. Oh remember how we said Vader killed Luke's dad? Kidding. Point of view, blah blah. Oh, that girl you've been kissing in 2 movies? She's your sister. And Vader "the force is strong in this one" never realized it all the times he was standing 5 inches from her in the first 2 movies. The only major problem with the PT is that Lucas directed it, not wrote it. A different director doing those movies would not have made it as kid-lite in tone and allowed all the goofy dialogue and bad comedy moments. Lucas had decades to think about the PT after Return of the Jedi and you can see how seeds planted in the first movie don't pay off until Revenge of the Sith. That's patient writing, not rushed.

And now we have Force Awakens which was rushed and re-edited a number of times and the best they could come up with was a paint by numbers script that contained a "best of" series of scenes from the OT in general and New Hope in particular. I will always wonder at what could have been if Abrams had directed Lucas' script for Episode 7.

[jeff_14]

8 minutes ago, exciter1 said:

I really just think Ahsoka gave in and wasn't going to leave her master during a perilous confrontation with him.  This was the time and it may have sealed her fate.

This is pretty wild here, Captain Rex in "Return of the Jedi"?

http://www.slashfilm.com/captain-rex-in-return-of-the-jedi/

Oh I like that idea of Rex being in Return of the Jedi. Now, the one argument that him procuring Death Star parts during the Clone wars makes him valuable on the mission is pretty weak since they don't go to the Death Star but just some random bunker planetside, but the visuals line up. I'm considering that soldier to be him until Disney publishes a statement to the contrary.

I'll give Ahsoka credit for lasting as long as she did and invoke the massive explosion as the ultimate winner and decider of the fight. It's very easy to conclude that the explosion knocked them both around and Vader left afterwards to recuperate. So, not a win for either of them, but it preserves Vader's bad assery reputation intact and makes Ahsoka look good since neither of them lost. But if there was no explosion, Vader wins hands down as far as I'm concerned. 

[Vinetu]

Guys, being an old EU fan, of which I read quite a lot, I couldn't disagree more with your characterization of Vader, so I'll just drop it. Vader was described in much of the EU as "so much less" than AS was and I quite liked that characterization. I think many of you either aren't hardcore SW fans or are completely missing the whole point of Star Wars. The Dark Side isn't stronger, no matter what Lucas abysmal portrayal of the Light Side was, and regardless of how mass media got frenzied about the dark side...

I believe that Filoni is actually on path of redemption portraying what Light Side of the Force that isn't chained in dogmas of Old Jedi Order can actually achieve. Fierce determination, that stems from sense of purpose, not anger or guilt, combined with compassion, love and sacrifice. Call me optimist, I don't know, but I honestly cannot imagine how DV could POSSIBLY defeat Ahsoka, a character that has come full circle, something DV would do many years later...

So, no, Vader is not the ultimate killing machine (although I'd give you that he is the coolest looking villain of all time), and he's not unbeatable. Emperor may know that Vader has perhaps potential to be stronger, but he chained Vader in fetters of fear (yeah, guys, that comes in bundle with the dark side, it's not all awesome) and is quite confident that Vader would remain forever bound. Emperor never feared Vader, but he did oh so much fear Anakin Skywalker.

And again, those of you who think that these few seconds of lightning at the endo of ROTJ wasn't much of a fight are also missing a point. It wasn't really about bad CGI and catching Palpatine off-guard, it was about Light unleashed... But hey, who knows, perhaps it's just about the black armor not having a good grounding

</Nerdrant>

[jeff_14]

12 minutes ago, Vinetu said:

Guys, being an old EU fan, of which I read quite a lot, I couldn't disagree more with your characterization of Vader, so I'll just drop it. Vader was described in much of the EU as "so much less" than AS was and I quite liked that characterization. I think many of you either aren't hardcore SW fans or are completely missing the whole point of Star Wars. The Dark Side isn't stronger, no matter what Lucas abysmal portrayal of the Light Side was, and regardless of how mass media got frenzied about the dark side...

I believe that Filoni is actually on path of redemption portraying what Light Side of the Force that isn't chained in dogmas of Old Jedi Order can actually achieve. Fierce determination, that stems from sense of purpose, not anger or guilt, combined with compassion, love and sacrifice. Call me optimist, I don't know, but I honestly cannot imagine how DV could POSSIBLY defeat Ahsoka, a character that has come full circle, something DV would do many years later...

So, no, Vader is not the ultimate killing machine (although I'd give you that he is the coolest looking villain of all time), and he's not unbeatable. Emperor may know that Vader has perhaps potential to be stronger, but he chained Vader in fetters of fear (yeah, guys, that comes in bundle with the dark side, it's not all awesome) and is quite confident that Vader would remain forever bound. Emperor never feared Vader, but he did oh so much fear Anakin Skywalker.

And again, those of you who think that these few seconds of lightning at the endo of ROTJ wasn't much of a fight are also missing a point. It wasn't really about bad CGI and catching Palpatine off-guard, it was about Light unleashed... But hey, who knows, perhaps it's just about the black armor not having a good grounding

</Nerdrant>

I'm also an old EU fan and a very hardcore fan. I'm not saying the dark side is more powerful than the light. But Vader is the best, and is unbeatable if not distracted by personal demons. He could take out the Emperor, as Vader, if he wanted. I fully grant that Ahsoka may well be one of the best fighters there is, but she's still not going to beat Vader on her best day. In the OT, Yoda and Obi-wan are still stuck in their old thinking that Vader can only be beaten by a conventional Jedi "with the force as his ally". But that's not what won out. It was Luke's love for his father than won and redeemed him and turned him back to the light. Now one can argue that love, despite what the Jedi Code says otherwise, is in keeping with the best attributes of the light side of the force, and I would be one of those making that argument. Palpatine was defeated by soneone so love/light side-infused that he could soak up an electrical beating for 5 seconds. And yes, the rubber soles in his boots helped.

My take on the balance of the force prophecy is that it has multiple meanings, and one of those is Anakin being the first person able to combine both the light and the dark in one being. Granted it only happened at the end, but his son did it too by accepting his passions but keeping them under leash. This is the issue I'm dying to see addressed in the new trilogy with Luke. I see him as being on the grey side, which was visually suggested by his robes at the end of Force Awakens. I don't think you can just go back to being all about the light side after going dark in Return of the Jedi. I think he walks a fine line and may make interesting decisions that aren't purely black or white as the Jedi Code and council would see them. We'll see in 2 years.

Edited April 1, 2016 by jeff_14

[Darth_Raichu]

4 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

I don't think there was anything rushed about them. On paper, the PT is in fact more intricate and well conceived than the OT, which does come across as more ad hoc. Oh remember how we said Vader killed Luke's dad? Kidding. Point of view, blah blah. Oh, that girl you've been kissing in 2 movies? She's your sister. And Vader "the force is strong in this one" never realized it all the times he was standing 5 inches from her in the first 2 movies. The only major problem with the PT is that Lucas directed it, not wrote it. A different director doing those movies would not have made it as kid-lite in tone and allowed all the goofy dialogue and bad comedy moments. Lucas had decades to think about the PT after Return of the Jedi and you can see how seeds planted in the first movie don't pay off until Revenge of the Sith. That's patient writing, not rushed.

And now we have Force Awakens which was rushed and re-edited a number of times and the best they could come up with was a paint by numbers script that contained a "best of" series of scenes from the OT in general and New Hope in particular. I will always wonder at what could have been if Abrams had directed Lucas' script for Episode 7.

Oh I believe GL had the outline of PT shimmering in his head for years.  However, act of putting those thoughts in scripts that could be acted, filmed, and enjoyed by the audience  (ie. writing the scripts) was rushed.  The dialogues were clunky and scenes took too long on parts and way too short on the others.

And what is this business about Lucas not writing the PT?  Just go to the IMDB or wookiepedia pages for episode 1,2, & 3 and check who was credited as writer of those movies.  Even in the making of documentary, Lucas was shown beaming after just finished writing the scripts.  

[jeff_14]

2 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Oh I believe GL had the outline of PT shimmering in his head for years.  However, act of putting those thoughts in scripts that could be acted, filmed, and enjoyed by the audience  (ie. writing the scripts) was rushed.  The dialogues were clunky and scenes took too long on parts and way too short on the others.

And what is this business about Lucas not writing the PT?  Just go to the IMDB or wookiepedia pages for episode 1,2, & 3 and check who was credited as writer of those movies.  Even in the making of documentary, Lucas was shown beaming after just finished writing the scripts.  

I wasn't saying he didn't write the PT, I was saying the problem was not that he wrote PT but that he also directed it. All sorts of scripts have problems that a director solves, whether by modifying dialogue, pacing, sequencing, etc. The script is only the starting point. For my money, Lucas should be consulted on plotting, and that's it. There's nothing wrong with his stories.

[Darth_Raichu]

1 minute ago, jeff_14 said:

I wasn't saying he didn't write the PT, I was saying the problem was not that he wrote PT but that he also directed it. All sorts of scripts have problems that a director solves, whether by modifying dialogue, pacing, sequencing, etc. The script is only the starting point. For my money, Lucas should be consulted on plotting, and that's it. There's nothing wrong with his stories.

This I agree 100%.  He was too close to his baby to see it objectively during the movie making process.

 

 

[exciter1]

2 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

This I agree 100%.  He was too close to his baby to see it objectively during the movie making process.

He changed stuff all the time too.  Walk in, I don't like this, try this, make me this, I'll be back.  Production folks going, WTF, what, how does this fit?  Get to editing, "George, this is what we have".  "What's our timeline?", "Six Weeks", oh crap, "We have this crappy scene here, throw it in".

[Darth_Raichu]

28 minutes ago, exciter1 said:

He changed stuff all the time too.  Walk in, I don't like this, try this, make me this, I'll be back.  Production folks going, WTF, what, how does this fit?  Get to editing, "George, this is what we have".  "What's our timeline?", "Six Weeks", oh crap, "We have this crappy scene here, throw it in".

To make things worse he was also the boss of these people which made it hard for giving him honest feedback.  Just look at the making of documentary.  There were so much excitement when they screened the movie for the first time.  By the end of the movie the excitements were gone from their eyes.  They all knew something was not right but did not know how to bring it up to GL.

[jeff_14]

20 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

To make things worse he was also he boss of these people which made it hard for giving him honest feedback.  Just look at the making of documentary.  There were so much excitement when they screened the movie for the first time.  By the end of the movie the excitements were gone from their eyes.  They all knew something was not right but did not know how to bring it up to GL.

It's no accident that most people's favourite Star Wars movie is Empire, the one he had the least involvment in. His interference all started during Return of the Jedi. A very good movie that would be better appreciated if not for the Ewoks aspect, which is all George. The original idea was for Endor to be Kashyyk, which would have shown the wookies being used as slave labour and then joining the uprising. Picture all the wookies ripping arms out of stormtrooper sockets en masse. Instead, children-minded George turned wook-e into ewok and we got a band of teddy bears taking out the Empire's best troops.I loved it as a kid, not so much since. Phantom Menace was the ewok mentality and tonality taken to a grander scale. It didn't have to be that way. A different director could have made Jar Jar a likeable outcast, not a clown.