Brick Wars - Anyone outside Germany taking notice?

[Sozial]

1 minute ago, Frank Brickowski said:

What are you talking about? I'm giving my money to LEGO temporarily, so I can later rip off LEGO fanboys and get my money back together with lots of additional money.

This his is just too hostile and dumb as well. I hope you find your piece with whatever vendetta you are having with a toy company. 

If it would be Monsanto, Nestlé, h&m etc. I could understand your devoted energy, but I so i just see an angry guy.

For once more can we close that thread?

[Frank Brickowski]

12 minutes ago, citymorgue said:

And there it is folks...  He wants to rip you off... Dude, no matter how much money you make off of selling Lego, you have given Lego the money to continue their dominance of galactic villainy!!!!
And you don't give your money to Lego 'temporarily'....  You have permanently given them your money by buying a Lego set.  Do you not understand how these kinds of transactions work????

Yeah, I'm giving my money to LEGO and the LEGO fanboys I'll be ripping off will pay it back x2 to x5.

By the way: at no point did I say people should stop LEGO investing. All I suggested was becoming aware of other brand for their OWN collection. I never said LEGO investing is not working or investing in any other brand was better.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Frank Brickowski

[Jackson]

JANGBRICKS' review of this COBI tank was quite positive. The review was posted on December 20, 2019.

 

 

[citymorgue]

1 minute ago, Frank Brickowski said:

Yeah, I'm giving my money to LEGO and the LEGO fanboys I'll be ripping off will pay it back x2 to x5.

Again, you do not understand how a company works.  They exist to sell you a product.  They don't care who buys it, or for what purpose, they just want to sell.  And by you buying Lego, you are fulfilling what they set out to do, and have made their money/profit from you. Come on man....clearly you know this.  So you are contributing to their continued existence as the leading toy brand by buying their product that you so desperately loathe.

[Sozial]

1 minute ago, Frank Brickowski said:

Yeah, I'm giving my money to LEGO and the LEGO fanboys I'll be ripping off will pay it back x2 to x5.

But wait: All parents are price sensitive and all AFOLs will buy different brands since they are better/cheaper, so there wont be any fanboys in the future who will pay x2 to x5.

Do you even notice how you contradict yourself?!?

[$20 on joe vs dan]

27 minutes ago, Frank Brickowski said:

I'm a LEGO investor myself. Still I hate them. I see no contradiction in this.

Who is copying whom?

WHO MADE WHO

[Frank Brickowski]

17 minutes ago, citymorgue said:

Again, you do not understand how a company works.  They exist to sell you a product.  They don't care who buys it, or for what purpose, they just want to sell.  And by you buying Lego, you are fulfilling what they set out to do, and have made their money/profit from you. Come on man....clearly you know this.  So you are contributing to their continued existence as the leading toy brand by buying their product that you so desperately loathe.

I don't hate their products, never said that. But I hate the company. My main point being that LEGO is ridiculously overpriced and there are much cheaper brands with on par quality.

17 minutes ago, Sozial said:

But wait: All parents are price sensitive and all AFOLs will buy different brands since they are better/cheaper, so there wont be any fanboys in the future who will pay x2 to x5.

Do you even notice how you contradict yourself?!?

Where?

I'm promoting an idea (considering alternative brands for your own collection) that will hurt my LEGO investing business if enough people actually follow the idea. So what?

Johnny is reviewing a LEGO set he does not sell himself, because he only sells alternative brands. So what?
 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Frank Brickowski

[$20 on joe vs dan]

15 minutes ago, Frank Brickowski said:

I don't hate their products, never said that. But I hate the company. My main point being that LEGO is ridiculously overpriced and there are much cheaper brands with on par quality.

Where?

I'm promoting an idea (considering alternative brands for your own collection) that will hurt my LEGO investing business if enough people actually follow the idea. So what?

I think your argument becomes a strawman when grouping legit companies like Cobi and Mega w/ others that have a reputation as being bogus and blatant copyright infringers...and since the German store sells some of the disreputable brands, then it's guilt by association.  Can't cherry pick the positives from say Cobi and use them to support other brands...just like it's not fair to use the reputation of other brands to knock Mega or Cobi.

regardless of intent...this has been a great topic for me to follow. It has relevance to all LEGO fans and resellers. Information is good.

on a personal note: My boy is getting really into historical military vessels and crafts...and I think a few of the Mega or Cobi offerings would be a good fit...though we will need a way to quarantine the differing brick sources.  

[Frank Brickowski]

28 minutes ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

I think your argument becomes a strawman when grouping legit companies like Cobi and Mega w/ others that have a reputation as being bogus and blatant copyright infringers...and since the German store sells some of the disreputable brands, then it's guilt by association.   

No matter how often you repeat your assumption of sets on the BB website being illegal: None of the sets they sell are illegal, I have said that multiple times. You cannot sell illegal sets in Germany. If you can sell them, they are not illegal. Since you're not willing to accept the facts first of all, of course I cannot do anything with arguments. Just because a brand is located in China does not make their sets illegal automatically.

Like I said before: The main problem in this discussion is that almost none of you know anything about the 2021 status quo of alternative brick brands, yet everyone has an opinion. How can you have an opinion without any knowledge about the details?

  

28 minutes ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

on a personal note: My boy is getting really into historical military vessels and crafts...and I think a few of the Mega or Cobi offerings would be a good fit...though we will need a way to quarantine the differing brick sources.  

 Nice. I've been trying to convey the idea that there are alternative brands with excellent quality at lower prices, offering many models LEGO did never have and will never have. Actually seeing you think about the existing choices is nice.

One thing to make you aware of: COBI has several in-house colors that are unique to them. For instance they have a grey "between" LBG and DBG. So while 100% of the parts are fully compatible to LEGO and all other brands, the colors are not. This would of course add to more variety, but as you said you'd like to keep the brands separate. While I personally don't understand this take, it's your choice of course.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Frank Brickowski

[Clousy Clouse]

On 2/8/2021 at 9:55 AM, Frank Brickowski said:

I can only recommend looking at what is happening in Germany right now. LEGO is kind of destroying themselves in a way with their extremely bad/clumsy style of communication alone. They should be at an all-time low popularity because of that...

According to Handelsblatt and market researcher Yougov LEGO is still the most popular brand in Germany as of november 2020. Not just most popular toy brand but THE most popular brand. https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/management/handelsblatt-testet-kundennaehe-als-erfolgsfaktor-das-sind-die-beliebtesten-marken-des-jahres-2020/26581934.html

Quite the opposite of what you are suggesting. Although the effects of the newer development with the legal battle about minifigs that Thorsten from Johnny's World is dealing with or the latest escalation with Thomas Panke / Held der Steine could of course not have been included in this survey. It will be interesting to see if their brand popularity in Germany will really change in 2021.

 

On 2/9/2021 at 11:48 PM, Frank Brickowski said:

"Some videos on Youtube"? Add up what number of people have seen those videos, have read the articles in renowned newspapers' websites like FAZ. The YouTube videos (on several big channels) caused by the current LEGO vs. Held vs. BlueBrixx vs. Johnny's World conflict alone should meanwhile add up to a DOUBLE-DIGIT MILLION amount of views. Plus the hundreds of thousands of views about every single LEGO-critical video by the Held has. If you are aware how social media works on emotional topics, well, I think it's safe to say that LEGO is losing much more than only a few hundred customers. 

I believe, many if not most people who watch "Held der Steine" are not Lego customers and never have been. They are only there for the entertainment.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Clousy Clouse

[$20 on joe vs dan]

My post never used the word "legal"...I was talking about reputations. If a company has ever produced something considered a blatant copy then that company needs to accept the repercussions...ie a reputation. and any store carrying that company products also needs to accept that other may judge them also.

I realize you see German law as a clear endorsement that the products are "legal"; many here do not share that stance. agree to disagree (move on). My stance is that I do not give much weight to legal loopholes..a copy is a copy AFAIC.

 

[Frank Brickowski]

1 minute ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

My post never used the word "legal"...I was talking about reputations. If a company has ever produced something considered a blatant copy then that company needs to accept the repercussions...ie a reputation. and any store carrying that company products also needs to accept that other may judge them also.

I realize you see German law as a clear endorsement that the products are "legal"; many here do not share that stance. agree to disagree (move on). My stance is that I do not give much weight to legal loopholes..a copy is a copy AFAIC.

 

You used the term "blatant copyright infringers" and copyright infringement would be illegal.

A copy is a copy. And a legal copy is a legal copy. Right.

[Mark Twain]

3 hours ago, Frank Brickowski said:

You used the term "blatant copyright infringers" and copyright infringement would be illegal.

A copy is a copy. And a legal copy is a legal copy. Right.

Xingbao which is an offshoot of bogus bricks, licensed the alien design from the Arvo brother's MOC. To be clear, what the Arvo brothers did was fan art . . . they did not have any license from Fox to produce the model nor did they have copyright to sell the design in book form, which they did. 

The Arvo brothers used language from the Alien film in their books for both the Alien figure and Chestbuster.  

https://arvobrothers.com/books/alien-project/

Quote

 

Inspired by the works of geniuses H.R. Giger and Ron Cobb, this new project presented us with an opportunity to build one of the greatest icons of fantasy art. A journey from organic to geometric shapes, from dark to light, and the deep admiration that drives us to build all our creations as our only luggage. This book includes detailed, step-to-step instructions showing how to build the model, together with comments, pictures and diagrams that help the description and will contribute to your understanding of the entire process.

Build your own model. The technology gives us the opportunity. Now is the time.

 

 

https://arvobrothers.com/pdf/chestburster/

Quote

 

A transmission of unknown origin is intercepted 39,5 lightyears away from Earth… it is repeated at intervals of 12 seconds…*blip*…*blip*…*blip*…

After Alien Project, we gladly present Chestburster, featuring one of the most terrifying and legendary icons of the Science Fiction. Inspired by the brilliantly bloody scene of the first film, this publication includes step-by-step instructions, building alternatives and modular techniques for an easy assembly / disassembly.
You don’t need to worry about micro changes on air density anymore.

Build your own model. The technology gives us the opportunity. Now is the time.

 

Producing a product without a proper license is not okay and you simping for a company selling the product isn't either. 

[Frank Brickowski]

  

5 hours ago, Mark Twain said:

Xingbao which is an offshoot of bogus bricks, licensed the alien design from the Arvo brother's MOC. To be clear, what the Arvo brothers did was fan art . . . they did not have any license from Fox to produce the model nor did they have copyright to sell the design in book form, which they did. 

The Arvo brothers used language from the Alien film in their books for both the Alien figure and Chestbuster.  

We've discussed this multiple times before here. Not all designs are protectable. If you're allowed to sell a set like this in Germany it's OBVIOUSLY not protected. Not everything that looks alike something else is an illegal copy. You can legally build and sell an "Italian Supercar" that looks exactly like a Ferrari but uses no protected logo and no protected names. That's the case with the CaDa "Ferrari" (they don't use that name) by the way that has been selling out constantly in Germany the last couple of months because it costs the same as the LEGO one but gives you 100% more stuff (motors, LEDs, parts, remote control, functions etc.) and doesn't look like garbage (like the LEGO Technic one).

The following comparison video has been watched by more than 800,000 AFOBs to date, but yeah, I know, that will change about NOTHING in the market - except for CaDa selling out and LEGO not selling out of course:

"CADA Master destroying LEGO Technic - The C61042W Italian Super Car"

Spot the difference:
(left = CaDa / right = LEGO -> same price)

5 hours ago, Mark Twain said:

Producing a product without a proper license is not okay and you simping for a company selling the product isn't either. 

If anything on the product is protected, this would be illegal, right. If nothing or only some parts are protected, you can do about whatever you want with the rest. Were the Arvo brothers actually not infringing any rights either because they knew what was protected and what was not? I don't know, just asking.

bogus bricks, by the way, has been shut down. Their former managers being in jail. Xingbao is NOT bogus bricks, it's a different company with a different portfolio, producing no knock-offs anymore. Please get yourselves informed before joining the discussion.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Frank Brickowski

[Frank Brickowski]

9 hours ago, Clousy Clouse said:

According to Handelsblatt and market researcher Yougov LEGO is still the most popular brand in Germany as of november 2020. Not just most popular toy brand but THE most popular brand. https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/management/handelsblatt-testet-kundennaehe-als-erfolgsfaktor-das-sind-die-beliebtesten-marken-des-jahres-2020/26581934.html

Quite the opposite of what you are suggesting.

  

I have not suggested anything like this in the first place. All I've been talking about is a TREND starting that should be taken notice of. I never claimed LEGO no longer being the most popular or most-selling brand. I was talking about oncoming SINGLE-DIGIT shifts in market share. Please read properly before replying.

 

9 hours ago, Clousy Clouse said:

I believe, many if not most people who watch "Held der Steine" are not Lego customers and never have been. They are only there for the entertainment.

Most of them WERE Lego fans before and now are not anymore - just like the Held himself. That's the core of LEGO's developing big problem I'm talking about.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Frank Brickowski

[Frank Brickowski]

On a side note: Since most of you (though not all) keep stating that about all Chinese brands are bogus, I wanted to throw in a question: If all these brands were bogus, bad companies doing illegal things only - then of course no legit, renowned, global company would ever cooperate with them, right?

For instance, let's say, a world-renowned japanese car manufacturer like TOYOTA would never, NEVER EVER make an official licensing agreement with those Chinese crooks, right? But that's exactly what Toyota did - An official licensing agreement with "Happy Build" for this model:

 

[Sozial]

now I finally know why they made the theme:

https://www.lego.com/en-us/themes/trolls

still arguing if you are more that  or that  guy. I suppose the latter.

[Mark Twain]

1 hour ago, Frank Brickowski said:

  

We've discussed this multiple times before here. Not all designs are protectable. If you're allowed to sell a set like this in Germany it's OBVIOUSLY not protected. Not everything that looks alike something else is an illegal copy. You can legally build and sell an "Italian Supercar" that looks exactly like a Ferrari but uses no protected logo and no protected names. That's the case with the CaDa "Ferrari" (they don't use that name) by the way that has been selling out constantly in Germany the last couple of months because it costs the same as the LEGO one but gives you 100% more stuff (motors, LEDs, parts, remote control, functions etc.) and doesn't look like garbage (like the LEGO Technic one).

The following comparison video has been watched by more than 800,000 AFOBs to date, but yeah, I know, that will change about NOTHING in the market - except for CaDa selling out and LEGO not selling out of course:

bogus bricks, by the way, has been shut down. Their former managers being in jail. Xingbao is NOT bogus bricks, it's a different company with a different portfolio, producing no knock-offs anymore. Please get yourselves informed before joining the discussion.

You are grossly misinformed and have no clue what you are talking about. Xingbao and bogus bricks were both owned by Meizhi and shared factory space. And bogus bricks has rebranded itself as King Bricks. You are being willfully ignorant of how organized crime in China operates when it comes to intellectual property theft and copyright infringement. https://customizeminifiguresintelligence.wordpress.com/2019/04/26/bogus bricks-boss-arrested-factories-closed-by-shanghai-police/

Simply because Xingbao operates with a different portfolio does not mean that it has changed its act, nor does it mean that the designs they use are properly licensed. 

And, no, you cannot legally sell anything that looks like one of Ferrai's 488 anywhere in the EU, including Germany, without first approval from the company. The only exception is the 250 GTO, which the company lost its trademark case and is still under appeal.  In point of fact, Ferrai won several cases against toy manufactures in the EU who tried to copy the shape and likeness of its vehicles. 

https://www.courthousenews.com/ferrari-wins-back-testarossa-trademark-at-eu-court/

https://www.internationallawoffice.com/Newsletters/Intellectual-Property/Denmark/Norsker-Co/Court-Puts-Ferrari-Toy-Cars-in-Pole-Position

Again, these are settled legal cases . . . not fan boy YouTube videos. 

[Frank Brickowski]

43 minutes ago, Mark Twain said:

You are grossly misinformed and have no clue what you are talking about. Xingbao and bogus bricks were both owned by Meizhi and shared factory space. And bogus bricks has rebranded itself as King Bricks. You are being willfully ignorant of how organized crime in China operates when it comes to intellectual property theft and copyright infringement. https://customizeminifiguresintelligence.wordpress.com/2019/04/26/bogus bricks-boss-arrested-factories-closed-by-shanghai-police/ 

bogus bricks is not operating anymore. Please show me examples of how the other companies mentioned are infringing existing copyright right now with sets being sold in Germany. Once again: You should watch your words a bit better, claiming Xingbao was part of "organized crime". I mean, this should stay a discussion with no one acutally going to jail - not even you because of defamation against legally operating Chinese brands.

  

43 minutes ago, Mark Twain said:

Simply because Xingbao operates with a different portfolio does not mean that it has changed its act, nor does it mean that the designs they use are properly licensed. 

Is there something specific in their actual portfolio to prove what you claim? You simply claim they are acting illegal without any evidence other than your "feeling".

    

43 minutes ago, Mark Twain said:

And, no, you cannot legally sell anything that looks like one of Ferrai's 488 anywhere in the EU, including Germany, without first approval from the company. The only exception is the 250 GTO, which the company lost its trademark case and is still under appeal.  In point of fact, Ferrai won several cases against toy manufactures in the EU who tried to copy the shape and likeness of its vehicles. 

https://www.courthousenews.com/ferrari-wins-back-testarossa-trademark-at-eu-court/

https://www.internationallawoffice.com/Newsletters/Intellectual-Property/Denmark/Norsker-Co/Court-Puts-Ferrari-Toy-Cars-in-Pole-Position

Oh man, the very articles you linked put it very clearly: The trademark refers to the NAME only! It's about the NAME "Testarossa" that is a trademark. The design of the car is not protected (and supposedly not protectABLE in the first place). Get your act together before posting more nonsense, man.

  

43 minutes ago, Mark Twain said:

Again, these are settled legal cases . . . not fan boy YouTube videos. 

Yeah, and you did not read them properly hence posting wrong info afterwards.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Frank Brickowski

[citymorgue]

You know....I got to thinking... With Frank basically gobbling and white knighting so hard for some of these companies who clearly operate in murky waters, I'm starting to think this is an extremely elaborate troll campaign.

I just don't see why one person would fight so hard over an extremely small shift in these 'off brand' 'companies' market share over Lego.  And if this is only really happening in Germany, then as the overall world market share of Lego, it's negligible at best, and I doubt Lego is shaking in their boots over this 'competition.'

Please just give it up Frank.  Where did Lego hurt you???  Because this is pretty sad and pathetic that you will do anything to defend these companies.

[Voltron]

Maybe I should start a new brand called "bogus bogus bricks" whose designs are very similar to lego competitors (but not 100% the same) and sell for half the price 😋

[Frank Brickowski]

23 minutes ago, citymorgue said:

over an extremely small shift in these 'off brand' 'companies' market share over Lego.  And if this is only really happening in Germany, then as the overall world market share of Lego, it's negligible at best, and I doubt Lego is shaking in their boots over this 'competition.'
 

Very popular German YouTuber with 1.4 million followers and 1 million views on his "LEGO vs. Held" reaction video in which he's saying "I got interested in bricks now, but having witnessed what LEGO is doing right now, I'll not build anything from them on my channel but stick with the alternative brands". This is a very clear message directly going into the brains of 1+ million kids and teenagers, the next brick buyers' generation. As soon as a major share of kids agree upon LEGO being "not cool", that will be it for TLG in the long run.

The Held video he is referring to has been watched by more than 2.2 million Germans. "Kuchen TV" (also with a rather young audience) made a video (close to 1 million followers) saying: "I don't support LEGO anymore because I don't like what they're doing". The shop I've mentioned repeatedly here has gained 10,000 additional followers on YouTube within 1.5 months, now being at 50,000.

And these are only SOME of the channels criticising LEGO at the moment plus all the online news portals, law blogs etc.

As I said before: This will change the market, not only in Germany. The brick market will change anyway now that alternative brands become more and more popular. Slow but steady. LEGO of course is speeding everything up quite a bit in Germany with their devastating communication.

Once again: LEGO are going against the competition because they ALREADY ARE in trouble in the German market.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Frank Brickowski

[roxio]

What are the current lawsuits Lego have with Bluebrixx referenced on page 1 of thread?

[citymorgue]

12 minutes ago, Frank Brickowski said:

Very popular German YouTuber with 1.4 million followers and 1 million views on his "LEGO vs. Held" reaction video in which he's saying "I got interested in bricks now, but having witnessed what LEGO is doing right now, I'll not build anything from them on my channel but stick with the alternative brands". This is a very clear message directly going into the brains of 1+ million kids and teenagers, the next brick buyers' generation. As soon as a major share of kids agree upon LEGO being "not cool", that will be it for TLG in the long run.

The Held video he is referring to has been watched by more than 2.2 million Germans. "Kuchen TV" (also with a rather young audience) made a video (close to 1 million followers) saying: "I don't support LEGO anymore because I don't like what they're doing". The shop I've mentioned repeatedly here has gained 10,000 additional followers on YouTube within 1.5 months, now being at 50,000.

And these are only SOME of the channels criticising LEGO at the moment plus all the online news portals, law blogs etc.

As I said before: This will change the market, not only in Germany. The brick market will change anyway now that alternative brands become more and more popular. Slow but steady. LEGO of course is speeding everything up quite a bit in Germany with their devastating communication.

Once again: LEGO are going against the competition because they ALREADY ARE in trouble in the German market.

You are conflating one segment of a market to an entire global market.  It's still a ridiculously small segment compared to the global reach of Lego as a whole.  I've seen different people over the years predict doom and gloom for Lego in various ways, but yet, here we are, and Lego still absolutely crushes it year over year.

You are taking a couple of youtube channels and without any evidence equating it to some major shift in global views on what Lego is doing.  You got to remember, this is the internet, and outrage culture always gets amplified.  That does not mean that it will spell the end of Lego as we know it.

People have always been critical of Lego.  Always... Yet, people still go out and buy up Lego.  I just have my doubts that it will make any significant changes in the market.

You sit here and say Lego is already in trouble in Germany.  Please provide hard evidence that this is the case.  Otherwise, you're just being hyperbolic and no one will take you seriously.

[Frank Brickowski]

32 minutes ago, roxio said:

What are the current lawsuits Lego have with Bluebrixx referenced on page 1 of thread?

In Germany LEGO is currently trying to hurt several people/companies they don't like by sending out their lawyers. "Held der Steine" got an adhortatory letter (ONE to date, not two or three as some misinformed people claim) in which LEGO demanded him to delete several videos where he used the term "LEGO (bricks)" when talking about "brick sets" from other manufacturers - like millions of people are using the word "LEGO(s)" as a name for any brick they see because that's the only brick brand they know.

BlueBrixx and others got interim injunctions in which LEGO claims that the figures of some alternative brands they are selling were looking too close to the "3D trademark" minifigure LEGO owns. (This "3D trademark" by the way does not exist in Asia, that's why it is perfectly legal to sell minifigures looking like the ones from LEGO there.) Problem is: LEGO's arguments sound like pretty much ANY figure you can put on a stud is infringing their 3D trademark. Even some of those that have specifically been designed to NOT resemble LEGO's figures. The judges have not yet spoken, but it's pretty clear that LEGO will not succeed with all of their claims, as some of them are simply ridiculous (multiple sources).

There's some other stuff going on, but this one is the most talked-about one. Meanwhile some altenative brands/retailers have started taking action against LEGO, seeking certain designs LEGO has registered to be deleted because of a missing "threshold of originality" and other stuff. For instance LEGO has registered the design for a 1x5 plate they don't even use themselves, while COBI and others have been using this piece for years now. Well, as there's already lots of 1x... plates around and the 1x5 plate is nothing special, this is one of the designs that CANNOT be protected due to the missing "threshold of originality" - which means: LEGO registered this design, but they will most likely not be able to defend it (just because it's nothing special), so it will most likely get deleted just as the alternative brands demand. There's also a discussion going on about LEGO being in danger of losing the trademark name "LEGO" because it's become a generic term for any bricks.

Like I said: LEGO itself is in lots of trouble right now and their public actions actually make the situation only worse for them. A lot of AFOBs are even demanding for a crowd funding to be set up so they can give money for a trial that would aim for the "LEGO" name trademark to vanish. So, now people can return again saying this will all have no effect to the market, I know.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Frank Brickowski