COVID-19 / Coronavirus Discussion

[Donut]

[Mark Twain]

The most reasonable reason to not get the vaccine is the lack of long term trial data of a new technology. No one knows for sure.
On the flip side no other vaccine in history has EVER been tested in 100s of million "test subjects" and nothing in terms of the level of diversity in age (except children), race, and creed.

Once the vaccines become fully authorized and also approved for K-12, you will see states and local schools requiring vaccinations as they do now for a host of other childhood illnesses and Covid, along with its specific vaccine resistance, will eventually fade into a seasonal disease with an obnoxious minority of antivaxers.


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[dennugsmello]

3 minutes ago, Mark Twain said:

Once the vaccines become fully authorized.

What if this does not happen? It would an interesting turn of events. 

[Jbad87]

23 minutes ago, dennugsmello said:

What if this does not happen? It would an interesting turn of events. 

Too much money on the line to not happen.

[spener90]

14 minutes ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

The most reasonable reason to not get the vaccine is the lack of long term trial data of a new technology. No one knows for sure.

On the flip side no other vaccine in history has EVER been tested in 100s of million "test subjects" and nothing in terms of the level of diversity in age (except children), race, and creed.

Long-term is really my only concern, unfortunately if things go wrong there are no returns allowed. I don't care about the idea of being sick for a weekend (fully prepared to open a Lego set and feel terrible while building). I will end up having to get it here soon simply because of my job now requiring it, so now I have to figure out which one (suggestions are welcome).

It has personally been a point of moral confusion for me. I am completely in for taking care of others and the importance of trying to squash this thing (which is highly unlikely). On the other hand, the peer pressure tactics and bullying, lack of long-term data, and unwillingness to consider anything effective besides a vaccine, makes me question it.

[Mathew]

28 minutes ago, spener90 said:

 On the other hand, the peer pressure tactics and bullying, lack of long-term data, and unwillingness to consider anything effective besides a vaccine, makes me question it.

I’ve been liking it to the war on terror we went though 20 years ago. “You’re either with us or against us....”. Interestingly it was the conservatives or hawks pushing (bullying) the narrative then.  The war on terror in retrospect was a failure for a lot of people namely the innocent Iraqi civilians who were caught up in it. I’m sure “they” got what they wanted out of it. Now there’s a new war, much different. The globalists are united this time around and they have the leftists doing the bullying. I do blame Trump for a lot of it. He made the Left deranged and too many on the right trusted him (after 8 years of the mediocre Zobama). Regardless he’s just another puppet to help control and manipulate the masses. Biden is senile and probably won’t make it through his first four years.  We have a questionable person in the wings to take his place. The best advice I have is to follow the money and when attacked for questioning authority then you’re probably on to something. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Mathew

[elmaslıefendi]

44 minutes ago, Mark Twain said:

...will eventually fade into a seasonal disease with an obnoxious minority of antivaxers.

First of all: don't be so certain of that outcome.

Second: you see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Why can't you be respectful? 'Obnoxious minority of antivaxers'. I'm not an antivaxer, I'm vaccinated against all major, dangerous diseases. I just specifically don't want the Covid-Vaccine, because the long term studies are just not there & I don't want to risk it. This is my choice, I'm deciding if I want this in my body or not. I'm not a test subject. 

Why make it so stressful? Those who want it should get it, those who don't want it shouldn't. Don't pressure someone into getting the vaccine, let them decide for themselves. 

[Mark Twain]

Long-term is really my only concern, unfortunately if things go wrong there are no returns allowed. I don't care about the idea of being sick for a weekend (fully prepared to open a Lego set and feel terrible while building). I will end up having to get it here soon simply because of my job now requiring it, so now I have to figure out which one (suggestions are welcome).
It has personally been a point of moral confusion for me. I am completely in for taking care of others and the importance of trying to squash this thing (which is highly unlikely). On the other hand, the peer pressure tactics and bullying, lack of long-term data, and unwillingness to consider anything effective besides a vaccine, makes me question it.

If you don’t like that some of the vaccines use MRNA tech, then take Johnson’s and Johnson’s. Covid might only make you mildly ill, it may also leave you with long term health complications, as it has for over 11 million Americans, and there’s a chance it could kill you.


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[keymomachine]

20 minutes ago, spener90 said:

On the other hand, the peer pressure tactics and bullying, lack of long-term data, and unwillingness to consider anything effective besides a vaccine, makes me question it.

I'm unclear on the bolded point here. What about masks? Social distancing? These were already seemingly rejected. Vaccines is how to beat respiratory viruses, there is no other game-plan. We don't know the long-term effects of Covid-19 infection. I don't want to beat this dead horse, but good golly I'll take all three of the US vaccines a couple times before I would voluntarily roll the dice with Covid on "long-term effects". How much long-term data would be enough to choose the vaccine over the risk of infection? I have a friend STILL suffering the cardiac effects of the Covid infection she had in April 2020, there is one data-point. 

FWIW, I got the Johnson & Johnson single shot, I'm not a youngish woman on birth control, so I wasn't particularly worried about the rare blood clotting side-effect. The pause in distribution started like two days after I got it. I felt zero ill effects and have not contracted Covid. Full immunity takes 6 weeks. I've read a few fantastical headlines about how it's not as good against the Delta variant, but that was also a single experiment done in a lab in petri dishes with blood serum. J&J is based on a genetically modified cold virus, not mRNA, if that gives you pause. I would encourage you to get vaccinated sooner rather than later, as all evidence suggests that any of these vaccines will greatly reduce your likelihood of having severe symptoms from the delta variant requiring hospitalization. Best of luck.

[Jbad87]

"One of the most nagging questions about the COVID-19 pandemic for public health authorities, policymakers and the public was whether the vaccines stop transmission. Data shows that in breakthrough cases of the highly transmissible delta variant, the answer is no" Center for Disease Control (Jul 2021).

If the vaccine is to protect the individual from others not others from the individual than the choice should live with the individual. If Americans have the right to be obese, smoke cigarettes, and make decisions along those lines this shouldn't be as far out of a concept as society is making it. 

[Mark Twain]

First of all: don't be so certain of that outcome.
Second: you see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Why can't you be respectful? 'Obnoxious minority of antivaxers'. I'm not an antivaxer, I'm vaccinated against all major, dangerous diseases. I just specifically don't want the Covid-Vaccine, because the long term studies are just not there & I don't want to risk it. This is my choice, I'm deciding if I want this in my body or not. I'm not a test subject. 
Why make it so stressful? Those who want it should get it, those who don't want it shouldn't. Don't pressure someone into getting the vaccine, let them decide for themselves. 

What could possibly be stressful about our current situation with 600,000+ dead Americans, 11,000,000+ plus dealing with long term symptoms from this disease, and hospital capacity extinguished in a number of states? If you don’t want to get vaccinated, don’t. But be prepared to live with the consequences for you personal decision as public policy begins to require it in various aspects of life—like all those other required vaccines you’ve had. Your options for travel, education, and potential employment will likely be very different.


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[gmpirate]

38 minutes ago, Mathew said:

I’ve been liking it to the war on terror we went though 20 years ago. “You’re either with us or against us....”. Interestingly it was the conservatives or hawks pushing (bullying) the narrative then.  The war on terror in retrospect was a failure for a lot of people namely the innocent Iraqi civilians who were caught up in it. I’m sure “they” got what they wanted out of it. Now there’s a new war, much different. The globalists are united this time around and they have the leftists doing the bullying. I do blame Trump for a lot of it. He made the Left deranged and too many on the right trusted him (after 8 years of the mediocre Zobama). Regardless he’s just another puppet to help control and manipulate the masses. Biden is senile and probably won’t make it through his first four years.  We have a questionable person in the wings to take his place. The best advice I have is to follow the money and when attacked for questioning authority then you’re probably on to something. 

I agree with a lot of what you have to say but I disagree on your Trump assessment.  I agree that he motivated the left, but not simply because he got them riled up.  Democrats and Republicans are both for big government.  Yes, liberals reside on the Democrat side and conservatives in the Republican side, but when all is said and done both parties desire power above anything else which always means bigger government.  Democrats push to empower the government more and Republicans pretend to fight it.  Trump got the left all fired up because he stood up to the Deep State and wouldn't play ball like a "good Republican".  Just because the media and pop culture were all in a fuss about Trump doesn't mean those really in charge got their feelings hurt.  They didn't like that a president was independent and not caving to their typical tactics.  And what they are doing now by trying to destroy anyone associated with Trump is to prevent anyone in the future of even thinking about opposing them.  And even if someone still has the fortitude to do so, they are trying to scare other people from joining the cause in the future.

[Jbad87]

3 minutes ago, Mark Twain said:

What could possibly be stressful about our current situation with 600,000+ dead Americans, 11,000,000+ plus dealing with long term symptoms from this disease, and hospital capacity extinguished in a number of states? If you don’t want to get vaccinated, don’t. But be prepared to live with the consequences for you personal decision as public policy begins to require it in various aspects of life—like all those other required vaccines you’ve had. Your options for travel, education, and potential employment will likely be very different.


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 “If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death" How are COVID-19 deaths counted? It’s It's complicated, (Patrick Boyle, Asscoiation of American Medical Colleges, Feb 2021)

600k people died that tested positive for Covid at the time of death or Covid was listed on their death certificate. 600k did not die from Covid. From being the keyword. 

[Jbad87]

600k + Americans died last year from heart disease. According to the cdc, "High blood pressure, high blood cholesterol, and smoking are key risk factors for heart disease. Several other medical conditions and lifestyle choices can also put people at a higher risk for heart disease, including: Diabetes. Overweight and obesity.(Sep 8, 2020)"

Mass media is doing everything they can to shame those that haven't received the vaccine but I'd be amazed if I ever heard someone tell an obese person to shed some weight. 

[spener90]

18 minutes ago, keymomachine said:

I'm unclear on the bolded point here. What about masks? Social distancing? These were already seemingly rejected. Vaccines is how to beat respiratory viruses, there is no other game-plan. We don't know the long-term effects of Covid-19 infection. I don't want to beat this dead horse, but good golly I'll take all three of the US vaccines a couple times before I would voluntarily roll the dice with Covid on "long-term effects". How much long-term data would be enough to choose the vaccine over the risk of infection? I have a friend STILL suffering the cardiac effects of the Covid infection she had in April 2020, there is one data-point. 

FWIW, I got the Johnson & Johnson single shot, I'm not a youngish woman on birth control, so I wasn't particularly worried about the rare blood clotting side-effect. The pause in distribution started like two days after I got it. I felt zero ill effects and have not contracted Covid. Full immunity takes 6 weeks. I've read a few fantastical headlines about how it's not as good against the Delta variant, but that was also a single experiment done in a lab in petri dishes with blood serum. J&J is based on a genetically modified cold virus, not mRNA, if that gives you pause. I would encourage you to get vaccinated sooner rather than later, as all evidence suggests that any of these vaccines will greatly reduce your likelihood of having severe symptoms from the delta variant requiring hospitalization. Best of luck.

I'm actually going to most likely get the J&J option. I have plenty of antibodies still from my blood test, and the last time I was sick was "before" Covid was here in February of 2020. I went down for a solid weekend of just sleep and was good by Monday. Obviously a lot has changed since then, and there is no guarantee that I had it then. Thankfully no long-term impact of it though.

Also, I wasn't referring to masks or social distancing. More so meant Ivermectin and others, which I know of several very accomplished doctors who are in favor of it and have personally used it themselves.

I still think it is imperative that people begin to take better take care of themselves. If you smoke, figure out a plan to stop. Drink in moderation. Exercise frequently, even just a 30 minute walk will be great. And try to minimize the processed foods, instead eat fruits and veggies, and whole grains. It will leave you far better prepared for the virus whether you have the vaccine or not.

[gmpirate]

5 minutes ago, Mark Twain said:

What could possibly be stressful about our current situation with 600,000+ dead Americans, 11,000,000+ plus dealing with long term symptoms from this disease.

There's a lot of big numbers being thrown around out there but many are misleading.  I'm not going to dispute anyone's "numbers" here but there are at least things to consider and think about.  One being that if you die in a hospital and they find you had the virus it gets recorded as a covid death.  Hospitals also receive funding related to covid cases.  Many of the studies are funded by the government.  Many of these scientists and researchers receive their funding from the government.  A lot of people are quick to point out how big businesses fund their own studies to support their causes so why not when the government does it?  Is the government a body of saints with purely altruistic motives?

We are supposed to be free country with free speech and press and yet the Federal Government is working with social media to censor opposing viewpoints and arguments against "officially sanctioned covid practices".   People are constantly being banned and censored for expressing a different viewpoint or coming to a different conclusion.

I can respect someone coming to whatever conclusion they come to about this virus but silencing people scares me.  It doesn't stop with Covid either.

[gmpirate]

2 minutes ago, spener90 said:

I still think it is imperative that people begin to take better take care of themselves. If you smoke, figure out a plan to stop. Drink in moderation. Exercise frequently, even just a 30 minute walk will be great. And try to minimize the processed foods, instead eat fruits and veggies, and whole grains. It will leave you far better prepared for the virus whether you have the vaccine or not.

100%  It shouldn't be forced upon anyone (like it is) but I've known countless people who have pulled through things only because they were in such good physical health.  My dad only made it through a heat attack and 4x bypass surgery only because he was still playing ball, working out and eating relatively healthy.  I've also heard of people in fantastic health fall victim to terrible things but I'm not sure that's a reason to not practice good health.

[elmaslıefendi]

17 minutes ago, Mark Twain said:

But be prepared to live with the consequences for you personal decision as public policy begins to require it in various aspects of life—like all those other required vaccines you’ve had. Your options for travel, education, and potential employment will likely be very different.

That's fine. I like being blackmailed. I'm prepared to live with any rules government forces on me, society rejecting me, whatever. I don't really have a choice if I don't get it. Even if it makes zero sense, because I'm not putting any vaccinated person in danger, as they're vaccinated. Major paradox, but this pandemic wasn't about logic anyway.

The 'be prepared to live with the consequences'-sentence can also be directed to those getting the vaccine. I really, really hope this all goes well. In 2-3 years we'll know more. Too early to say anything, we just don't know, nobody does. At this point you can't say the vaccine is safe or dangerous, you can simply compare risk to reward & decide if it's a good/bad trade off. I personally don't know a single person who died because of Covid, but I knew one person who certainly died to the vaccine, she died 6 hours after getting her 2nd shot of Pfizer/Biontech.

[Mathew]

 

48 minutes ago, gmpirate said:

I agree with a lot of what you have to say but I disagree on your Trump assessment.  I agree that he motivated the left, but not simply because he got them riled up.  Democrats and Republicans are both for big government.  Yes, liberals reside on the Democrat side and conservatives in the Republican side, but when all is said and done both parties desire power above anything else which always means bigger government.  Democrats push to empower the government more and Republicans pretend to fight it.  Trump got the left all fired up because he stood up to the Deep State Just because the media and pop culture were all in a fuss about Trump doesn't mean those really in charge got their feelings hurt.  They didn't like that a president was independent and not caving to their typical tactics.  And what they are doing now by trying to destroy anyone associated with Trump is to prevent anyone in the future of even thinking about opposing them.  And even if someone still has the fortitude to do so, they are trying to scare other people from joining the cause in the future

I initially wanted to believe he was against the deep state but his presidency felt more like a WWF show. He’d just go too far. I couldn’t care less but his ongoing attacks on McCain cost him votes. Even if it were for show. In the end most people who liked him were either too embarrassed or fearful to admit it. The election was still a sham. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Mathew

[iahawks550]

8 minutes ago, Mathew said:

I could care less but his ongoing attacks on McCain cost him votes. 

*couldn't care less. 

[Mathew]

7 minutes ago, elmaslıefendi said:

I personally don't know a single person who died because of Covid, but I knew one person who certainly died to the vaccine, she died 6 hours after getting her 2nd shot of Pfizer/Biontech.

Funny how the media doesn’t report vaccine deaths. 🤔

I know two people who had health issues and died “from” Covid. An elderly woman with Lupus and an 80 year old man with COPD. You can’t really argue that either would have survived any virus with those health issues. 

[Mathew]

5 minutes ago, iahawks550 said:

*couldn't care less. 

Fixed for the grammar police. You can move on now. 🥴

[Mathew]

1 hour ago, Mark Twain said:

 But be prepared to live with the consequences for you personal decision as public policy begins to require it in various aspects of life—like all those other required vaccines you’ve had. Your options for travel, education, and potential employment will likely be very different.


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And you’ll be one those turning the “undesirables” in to the authorities when the time comes I bet. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Mathew

[ravenb99]

I've gone back and forth on feelings on it all.   While the numbers 600k did count comorbidities and according to CDC charts I read awhile back 80% plus were from 2 or more, the most recent doctors I've asked about vaccine questions say the numbers are well over a million if they were properly reported.  Never gonna know the exacts.   I pulled up some individual hospitals and the numbers in some didn't even add up correctly.  

Out of this recent "delta" wave a lot more people I personally know have gotten it.   One died and was a relative on wifes side.  Older 68 years old no pre-existing conditions and pretty heatlhy overall.  Was admitted July 15th or so and died Aug 2nd or 3rd.   Died from kidney failure.  Kidneys were perfectly healthy when admitted.  Stayed in 2.5 weeks.  Was intubated the last 4 days and passed away.   His wife also got it and was fairly sick but not hospitalized and son in 40s got it and had nothing.  Small town in FL where most probably don't believe in covid at all and most are unvaxxed.  Got it at a funeral they attended.

Other friend that was unvaxxed just lost the taste / smell (mainly the taste part) couldn't keep food down and was back to normal pretty soon.

Those all in the last few weeks and all in FL.  

Out of the rest of the time of covid pre delta only knew one personal friend that had got it and was pretty mild overall.

Then all my health stuff started while they were rolling out so been figuring out what to do.   Wife and Kid got first shot today and I'm going ahead next Friday (have a heart MRI midweek and wanted all the tests done before scheduling).

Figure with the multitude of weird **** my body has going on I really can't cause anymore damage then I have from no apparent reason.  Last 2 doctors convinced me pretty well there is no disadvantage of me getting it.   Probably will do the antibody test afterwards to see if my immune system has any response to them.   I'm still not on anything to suppress it more so interested to see with the low cd4 score if it takes.

As far as my diagnosis after getting one a lot more information came from these last few visits and looks like it might not be over.   Glad they are confirming before treating and after reading some of what they suggest it is definitely a possiblity.  Luckily from the new echo and carotid ultrasound it looks like the heart and carotids are ok and no issues but the MRI will be the full test.  Also wearing a heart monitor for a week so we shall see but preliminary findings look like the sarcoid is not affecting the heart.   Had the biopsy on my calf as well and very curious if it comes back Sarcoid or Vasculitis which has been brought into the picture again.  I definitely have classic sarcoidosis that isn't in question but the neurological events might not be.

[Mark Twain]

And you’ll be one those turning the “undesirables” in to the authorities when the time comes I bet. 

But how can I turn you in when the tin foil hat hides you oh so well?

This has been a fun visit to conspiracy theory land filled deep state Qanon adherents, but sadly I’m taking my ball and going home.


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