COVID-19 / Coronavirus Discussion

[fuzzy_bricks]

1 minute ago, KShine said:

Why? Because watching this is so much more enjoyable than this never ending, going nowhere debate

 

Second Robert Palmer song you've posted today.  I meant to reply to the Addicted to Love video, but I enjoy Florence and the Machine's cover of that song.

 

[Lordoflego]

I like popcorn, I like watching foreigners and their unknown quotes  

 

[$20 on joe vs dan]

1 hour ago, CosmicSpeed said:

I tried that. And I complained about it here when it was closed. It devolved into much more political name calling and less of a back and forth. Right now my biggest complaint is that Lamborghini dares to re-release the Countach, sans the LARGE EGREGIOUS WING.

is it just me or does anyone else think of Cindy Crawford when talking about this Lambo?

[keymomachine]

3 hours ago, Mathew said:

In other words worry about yourself and not others because it doesn’t matter. 

Ah yes, the American rugged individualism. It doesn't work against a virus. Viruses don't care about your personal freedoms, your guns, or your toughness. Heaven forbid I care about my fellow man, woman, and child. You've blown up your spot, Mathew. For all your blather, in the end you complain because you simply don't care about other people. If it means I'm a sheep to care about others, then bah-ram-ewe.

 

3 hours ago, Mathew said:

They knew about Delta and they knew that not everyone would be vaccinated by mid June. 

WE knew about the Delta outbreak in India - it was WIDELY reported and was basically concurrent with the widespread availability of vaccines in the United States in April. Since then the public has been pummeled with messaging from the government to get the vaccine. We've always known there are stubborn and disinformed people who would put off the vaccine or refuse it -  folks who don't trust anyone and only want elderberry or thieves oil. You cannot blame WHO, the CDC, NIH, Fauci, the White House or 'liberals' for that. You are literally blaming public health experts for the disinfo spread by untrusting conspiracy theorists [the little? guy].

 

6 hours ago, Mathew said:

Actually the science is proving that the “face coverings” are not effective. N95 masks may be effective but require special fitting.  Masks are a placebo to make you feel protected. Read the label on the box. 

This is actually just you talking out of your butt parroting some disinfo you saw somewhere? All the science points to universal masking and increased barriers slowing the spread of pandemics. Remember when y'all were like, the Chinese invented this thing! They are lying! Nah, they just ALL wore masks and listened.

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 This is a lit review on masks published in January. You're wrong because you're 100% focused on masks as a filter for the air you breathe in, but that's backwards, we're concerned with keeping our droplets to ourselves. So ideally we'd all have perfect filters on all the air we breathe in, but putting some filtration on all the air we breathe OUT actually helps everyone.

And... we're back where we started at individual vs. community protection.

[jeff_14]

6 minutes ago, keymomachine said:

Ah yes, the American rugged individualism. It doesn't work against a virus. Viruses don't care about your personal freedoms, your guns, or your toughness. Heaven forbid I care about my fellow man, woman, and child. You've blown up your spot, Mathew. For all your blather, in the end you complain because you simply don't care about other people. If it means I'm a sheep to care about others, then bah-ram-ewe.

 

WE knew about the Delta outbreak in India - it was WIDELY reported and was basically concurrent with the widespread availability of vaccines in the United States in April. Since then the public has been pummeled with messaging from the government to get the vaccine. We've always known there are stubborn and disinformed people who would put off the vaccine or refuse it -  folks who don't trust anyone and only want elderberry or thieves oil. You cannot blame WHO, the CDC, NIH, Fauci, the White House or 'liberals' for that. You are literally blaming public health experts for the disinfo spread by untrusting conspiracy theorists [the little? guy].

 

This is actually just you talking out of your butt parroting some disinfo you saw somewhere? All the science points to universal masking and increased barriers slowing the spread of pandemics. Remember when y'all were like, the Chinese invented this thing! They are lying! Nah, they just ALL wore masks and listened.

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 This is a lit review on masks published in January. You're wrong because you're 100% focused on masks as a filter for the air you breathe in, but that's backwards, we're concerned with keeping our droplets to ourselves. So ideally we'd all have perfect filters on all the air we breathe in, but putting some filtration on all the air we breathe OUT actually helps everyone.

And... we're back where we started at individual vs. community protection.

Hear hear. We canadians are watching in horror as states like Florida have 60 times as many deaths as Ontario with only twice the population. Thankfully the “freedom, guns, anti-masks” folks here are seen as kooks and have not stopped us from getting to almost 75% double vaccination despite a significant lag in getting vaccines compared to every other western country. Stay calm and science on.

[keymomachine]

1 hour ago, exciter1 said:

I could have just hid/deleted everything, but the Mack's might be enjoying the traffic.

I can't count how many times I click on the Reebok/New Balance/J. Crew ads I get served on BP.

[Sozial]

1 hour ago, Lordoflego said:

I like popcorn, I like watching foreigners and their unknown quotes  

 

I join you:

[Mark Twain]

10 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

Hear hear. We canadians are watching in horror as states like Florida have 60 times as many deaths as Ontario with only twice the population. Thankfully the “freedom, guns, anti-masks” folks here are seen as kooks and have not stopped us from getting to almost 75% double vaccination despite a significant lag in getting vaccines compared to every other western country. Stay calm and science on.

You have no idea what it is like. Our governor just stated no mask mandates and no lockdowns, yet asked the federal government for a hospital ship and is converting a parking garage into an ICU center because we are out of beds and will need 900+ federal healthcare workers to provide care because we don't have the manpower.

Our mayor and board or alderman met 30 minutes ago and decided to issue a mask mandate on city property but thought issuing a further order would be too divisive and we did not have the law enforcement personal to enforce it. There are zero available beds at our local hospital and our mayor hopes that local businesses will require masks-- hourly workers enforcing a mask mandate from one store to the next. Right?

Our school board refused to issue a mask mandate and left it to the superintendent to decide--he was hired 10 days for the start of the school year and made masks mandatory two days before school started. He was threatened online, called a child abuser, and people burned masks outside of his office. 

This has all happened in the last two weeks. My state's daily new infection rate hit all time highs today. I'm genuinely looking at how far it is to drive to find a state with a functional healthcare system. 

[Shortbus311]

This discussion is pointless. No one here is going to change anyone's mind about anything. For some reason, we as humans seem to hold onto our opinions even in light of contradictory facts. It is next to impossible to change someone's mind about something once they have formed their opinion.

My ex used to cram Q-tips way up her ear to "clean out all the wax". I told her over and over that ears were self cleaning and that a damp washcloth was all she needed to clean them. Showed her articles and papers written on the subject all the time. Yet there she was after each shower reaching for the box of Q-tips.

I am one of those freedom loving, gun toting, conservatives and I have been vaccinated because for me it was worth the risk to help ensure no adverse effects of Covid. But, my daughter who is 8 will not be getting any shots for it anytime soon (I know that there are no vaccinations for 8 year olds, but even if there were...) because with the unknowns around the vaccine and her young age/health, the reward doesn't really outweigh the risk. I see both sides of the debate.

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[Lordoflego]

35 minutes ago, Sozial said:

I join you:

You’re right next door to my motherland 

[Mathew]

11 minutes ago, Shortbus311 said:

My ex used to cram Q-tips way up her ear to "clean out all the wax". I told her over and over that ears were self cleaning and that a damp washcloth was all she needed to clean them. Showed her articles and papers written on the subject all the time. Yet there she was after each shower reaching for the box of Q-tips.

I am one of those freedom loving, gun toting, conservatives and I have been vaccinated because for me it was worth the risk to help ensure no adverse effects of Covid. But, my daughter who is 8 will not be getting any shots for it anytime soon (I know that there are no vaccinations for 8 year olds, but even if there were...) because with the unknowns around the vaccine and her young age/health, the reward doesn't really outweigh the risk. I see both sides of the debate.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
 

My wife is the same with Qtips. Grosses me out. I don’t allow her to do it with the kids though. 
 

I think we’re on similar pages. I begrudgingly got the Pfizer vaccine after I was advised by our health “experts“ that it was effective and I would no longer need to wear a mask.  I also have a part time gig job that puts me out there with the public.  I did my part and the health “experts” failed on their part. Oh well. I will put up the fight and respect those choose not to get the jab. Also, our children not be getting the vaccine either. 

[Mathew]

1 hour ago, keymomachine said:

Ah yes, the American rugged individualism. It doesn't work against a virus. Viruses don't care about your personal freedoms, your guns, or your toughness.  Blah blah blah

The virus is everywhere including areas with the highest vaccination numbers, strictest gun control laws, lockdowns and mask mandates.  I don’t think your post adds anything other than the same old liberal, group think diatribe.  You’re the ******* Borg as far as I’m concerned. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Mathew

[spener90]

6 minutes ago, Shortbus311 said:

This discussion is pointless. No one here is going to change anyone's mind about anything. For some reason, we as humans seem to hold onto our opinions even in light of contradictory facts. It is next to impossible to change someone's mind about something once they have formed their opinion.

My ex used to cram Q-tips way up her ear to "clean out all the wax". I told her over and over that ears were self cleaning and that a damp washcloth was all she needed to clean them. Showed her articles and papers written on the subject all the time. Yet there she was after each shower reaching for the box of Q-tips.

I am one of those freedom loving, gun toting, conservatives and I have been vaccinated because for me it was worth the risk to help ensure no adverse effects of Covid. But, my daughter who is 8 will not be getting any shots for it anytime soon (I know that there are no vaccinations for 8 year olds, but even if there were...) because with the unknowns around the vaccine and her young age/health, the reward doesn't really outweigh the risk. I see both sides of the debate.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
 

As someone who typically leans more conservatively (biggest exception is green energy), I feel like they have tried to use the same communication/marketing strategy with both sides. Yes, the vaccines work, so do masks, as well as certain medications that for some reason are unwilling to be acknowledged as viable options. I understand the unwillingness to wear masks outside, but inside it is just a mild burden.

I do have a questions, and I hope I don't get attacked for this as I genuinely cannot find any clear cut studies on this. Can anyone provide any long-term studies on mRNA vaccines? I'm talking 5 years and longer. Personally, the people who are hesitant that I know aren't worried about short-term side effects, but what is going to potentially happen in the years to come. I also understand that most side-effects for vaccines are usually seen within something like 2 months or so. Again, genuine curiosity as I feel like this is the most worried people are concerned with.

[dennugsmello]

[fuzzy_bricks]

1 hour ago, keymomachine said:

WE knew about the Delta outbreak in India - it was WIDELY reported and was basically concurrent with the widespread availability of vaccines in the United States in April. Since then the public has been pummeled with messaging from the government to get the vaccine. We've always known there are stubborn and disinformed people who would put off the vaccine or refuse it -  folks who don't trust anyone and only want elderberry or thieves oil. You cannot blame WHO, the CDC, NIH, Fauci, the White House or 'liberals' for that. You are literally blaming public health experts for the disinfo spread by untrusting conspiracy theorists [the little? guy].

 

6 minutes ago, spener90 said:

I do have a questions, and I hope I don't get attacked for this as I genuinely cannot find any clear cut studies on this. Can anyone provide any long-term studies on mRNA vaccines? I'm talking 5 years and longer. Personally, the people who are hesitant that I know aren't worried about short-term side effects, but what is going to potentially happen in the years to come. I also understand that most side-effects for vaccines are usually seen within something like 2 months or so. Again, genuine curiosity as I feel like this is the most worried people are concerned with.

I think it's OK to be skeptical of new things.  I'm even skeptical of things that have been around for a while.  There are people who blindly follow whatever they're told on both sides of the debate, but if you have legitimate concerns, because you've seen screw ups before, that doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist.

Just because the government says it is OK, doesn't mean I automatically believe them.  Here is just one story where they got it wrong.

https://www.propublica.org/article/heartware-patients-implanted-fda

[dennugsmello]

44 minutes ago, Shortbus311 said:

This discussion is pointless. No one here is going to change anyone's mind about anything. 

 

 

The core problem to this discussion is that’s impossible to be correct. Like many debates both sides are right and both sides are wrong. 

And since both arguments are logical, both sides can dig in and hold their position. Neither position on the covid debate is fundamentally incorrect.  

Liberty vs safety. Individual vs collective. The age old civilization debate is at play.

I’m being forced to vaccinate for my job. As a father of three my back is against the wall. No matter what side of the political spectrum you fall under this is unprecedented. For now at least, I’m glad people continue to debate this topic in a friendly manner here.

On other mainstream forums the story is bleak. We are reaching a divide in the country where one group is now wishing death on their opponent.

Truly insane.  And totally predictable.
 

 

[elmaslıefendi]

8 minutes ago, fuzzy_bricks said:

I think it's OK to be skeptical of new things.  I'm even skeptical of things that have been around for a while.  There are people who blindly follow whatever they're told on both sides of the debate, but if you have legitimate concerns, because you've seen screw ups before, that doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist.

 

 

It's so backwards. We admire philosphers, scientists & revolutionaries but despise even the simplest thoughts of scepticism in society. I can't understand this mentality & I never will.

[SpaceFan9]

28 minutes ago, spener90 said:

Can anyone provide any long-term studies on mRNA vaccines? I'm talking 5 years and longer.

 

There aren't any.  They never made it out of animal trials.  The folks (a.k.a. "science deniers") bringing up ADE and other side effects do so because those were the outcomes of the animal trials.

I want to encourage people here to remove the R-vs-D / left-vs-right blinders from this debate.  The racial group(s) with the lowest jab rates? PoC.  The education level with the greatest hesitancy? advanced/professional degrees (J.D., Ph.D., etc).  The narrative painted by the garbage media does not reflect reality.

 

[jeff_14]

2 minutes ago, SpaceFan9 said:

There aren't any.  They never made it out of animal trials.  The folks (a.k.a. "science deniers") bringing up ADE and other side effects do so because those were the outcomes of the animal trials.

I want to encourage people here to remove the R-vs-D / left-vs-right blinders from this debate.  The racial group(s) with the lowest jab rates? PoC.  The education level with the greatest hesitancy? advanced/professional degrees (J.D., Ph.D., etc).  The narrative painted by the garbage media does not reflect reality.

 

It’s worth remembering that the vaccines have only been approved on an emergency basis, which means some steps were skipped/rushed. Eric and Bret Weinstein have had a couple of thoughtful podcasts on what this means about risks, etc. There’s no question the vaccines work, the issue is what else do they do. I’m double vaxxed as is my teenage son, but I would also be very hesitant to give this to my 5 year old until we have a better sense of the long term outcomes on children. This is why it’s so important that those eligible get vaccines to put and end to this virus before it mutates into something worse that can affect kids. As bad as this has been, imagine if we were seeing scores of kids dying from this or a variant. Such numbers are already rising in the US and if kids become a material victim of the virus like seniors then all bets are off as people will quit work, shack up with relatives, whatever to protect kids from a virus that threatens them. 

[Jbad87]

My question is where is the discussion or evaluation of natural immunity through exposure? You can absolutely find empirical information but the mainstream "science" doesn't seem to want to discuss it. I had covid. I am alive. I should have a natural immune structure and ability to replicate it in future exposures. Why is there still a requirement to get the vaccine if I'm still alive? The arguement using influenza and the annual flu shot comes up. Using the shot to lessen the affects of the flu if you get it but influenza will never be eradicated. Is eradication of the virus even possible?

[jeff_14]

2 minutes ago, Jbad87 said:

My question is where is the discussion or evaluation of natural immunity through exposure? You can absolutely find empirical information but the mainstream "science" doesn't seem to want to discuss it. I had covid. I am alive. I should have a natural immune structure and ability to replicate it in future exposures. Why is there still a requirement to get the vaccine if I'm still alive? The arguement using influenza and the annual flu shot comes up. Using the shot to lessen the affects of the flu if you get it but influenza will never be eradicated. Is eradication of the virus even possible?

I expect it will be like the flu shot and we will get a booster every year or so. My understanding is that natural immunity to this is quite limited and may only last months. Plus, even if it doesn’t kill you it seems to be very good at leaving long term health effects in many people. 

[$20 on joe vs dan]

34 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

This is why it’s so important that those eligible get vaccines to put and end to this virus before it mutates into something worse 

Practically speaking; this is never going to happen.  The Delta originated in India and and there's a whole world (mostly 3rd world) out there not even close to a reasonable vaccination rate.  The numbers say more variants are inevitable and most likely will originate from another country...so even if US reaches 100% vaccination, that won't stop variants from coming in the future (unless US also closes borders and stop all international travel).

[Jbad87]

I would assume the long term affects are on those that saw significant adverse reactions to the virus such as those that ended up in the ICU. Due to my line of work I required lung imaging, EKG, blood oxygen testing, and a handful of other tests to get back to work. I had no indications of permanent damage or damage in general. The rest of the guys I work with that tested positive went through the same testing. No one has any signs of damage from the virus. This is my narrow scope based on a handful of fit younger dudes that all weathered the virus with minimal symptoms. 

[spener90]

1 minute ago, Jbad87 said:

My question is where is the discussion or evaluation of natural immunity through exposure? You can absolutely find empirical information but the mainstream "science" doesn't seem to want to discuss it. I had covid. I am alive. I should have a natural immune structure and ability to replicate it in future exposures. Why is there still a requirement to get the vaccine if I'm still alive? The arguement using influenza and the annual flu shot comes up. Using the shot to lessen the affects of the flu if you get it but influenza will never be eradicated. Is eradication of the virus even possible?

 

9 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

I expect it will be like the flu shot and we will get a booster every year or so. My understanding is that natural immunity to this is quite limited and may only last months. Plus, even if it doesn’t kill you it seems to be very good at leaving long term health effects in many people. 

Cleveland Clinic studies reinfection among staff (spectrumnews1.com)

This is from the #2 ranked hospital. Obviously (or maybe not?) mutations can change things. As of right now, we simply don't know how long immunity will last for those that had it as well as those receiving the vaccine.

Forced Evolution: Can We Mutate Viruses To Death? -- ScienceDaily

Also, this is an interesting idea. Way above my knowledge base, but the idea of adding a trait to a virus or bacteria that causes it to either make it harmless or kill it would be amazing.

[$20 on joe vs dan]

The most reasonable reason to not get the vaccine is the lack of long term trial data of a new technology. No one knows for sure.

On the flip side no other vaccine in history has EVER been tested in 100s of million "test subjects" and nothing in terms of the level of diversity in age (except children), race, and creed.