What did you do today?

[mudcatsfan]

So can we all agree that we live in a world where it's impossible to know everything?

If that's the case, why do people feel like they need to do their own research as opposed to trusting an expert in the field?

What makes you think that you're more likely to discover in a weeks or months or years worth of independent research that you would be more qualified to make a decision than someone who went to school for a decade studying this one specific thing?

 Further why does everyone think that someone is out to get them? Why do we presume that someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes and hurt you?

 Where does the distrust come from? Where is the evidence that it has been happening? Why are people so happy to believe they are a victim waiting to happen, unless they arm themselves against the storm?

 

[exciter1]

27 minutes ago, mudcatsfan said:

So can we all agree that we live in a world where it's impossible to know everything?

If that's the case, why do people feel like they need to do their own research as opposed to trusting an expert in the field?

What makes you think that you're more likely to discover in a weeks or months or years worth of independent research that you would be more qualified to make a decision than someone who went to school for a decade studying this one specific thing?

 Further why does everyone think that someone is out to get them? Why do we presume that someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes and hurt you?

 Where does the distrust come from? Where is the evidence that it has been happening? Why are people so happy to believe they are a victim waiting to happen, unless they arm themselves against the storm?

 

I never questioned Dr. Ruth’s expertise or experience.

[SpaceFan9]

First off, many thanks to the Mack's and the mods for providing a platform for sane discussion.  And thanks to the awesome brickpicker community for keeping the discussion civil.  Although our beliefs may differ, I see this thread as evidence that we all share similar values which is very nice to see.

13 hours ago, Pedilego said:

• how academia & the media removed the veneer of impartiality (academic and journalists should be teaching people how to think and giving them information from which to make their decisions but, now, they're more interested in telling people what to think), including even many of the most reputable sources actively misleading their audience,

 

I've seen/caught academic fraud first hand.  It's not pervasive, but it's real. The scientific process is supposed to pose a hypothesis, collect data, and then confirms/rejects/revises the hypothesis based on the measured data.  In my eyes, the "science" that has been driving health policy for the past year is not doing this.  Most of all the predictive models are bad if not outright faked, trustworthy numbers are hard to come by, and more often than not the data looks manipulated (to me) to match the (agenda-driven) model. But try to say this in an academic or medical forum (where it matters)---you'll get cancelled.

13 hours ago, Pedilego said:

search algorithms are manipulated, <strike>even</strike> particularly on scientific content 

 

Google is the worst at this.  Try the same search on Bing, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo, or StartPage, and you'll get wildly different results.

13 hours ago, Pedilego said:

jobs are lost or under constant unspoken threat

 

If things continue along the same path, I fully expect that I myself will be added to the list of Canceled People in the near future, likely for saying or writing something at work that even 5 years ago was agreed upon by a wide range of people.

2 hours ago, keymomachine said:

"trust the doctors" and "trust science" isn't good health and science communication

 

Public health policy can only be effective when guided by trustworthy sources.   The CDC and WHO have squandered that trust for a lot of people.  If they want the contrarians to start trusting them again, they need to be more transparent and begin acting trustworthy again.

 

[Mathew]

34 minutes ago, mudcatsfan said:

So can we all agree that we live in a world where it's impossible to know everything?

If that's the case, why do people feel like they need to do their own research as opposed to trusting an expert in the field?

What makes you think that you're more likely to discover in a weeks or months or years worth of independent research that you would be more qualified to make a decision than someone who went to school for a decade studying this one specific thing?

 Further why does everyone think that someone is out to get them? Why do we presume that someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes and hurt you?

 Where does the distrust come from? Where is the evidence that it has been happening? Why are people so happy to believe they are a victim waiting to happen, unless they arm themselves against the storm?

 

Doctors are all experts, right?  Are doctors always right?  Are all doctors equal?  If you just accept everything without question then you’re a sheep. 

[lodibricks]

59 minutes ago, mudcatsfan said:

So can we all agree that we live in a world where it's impossible to know everything?

If that's the case, why do people feel like they need to do their own research as opposed to trusting an expert in the field?

What makes you think that you're more likely to discover in a weeks or months or years worth of independent research that you would be more qualified to make a decision than someone who went to school for a decade studying this one specific thing?

 Further why does everyone think that someone is out to get them? Why do we presume that someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes and hurt you?

 Where does the distrust come from? Where is the evidence that it has been happening? Why are people so happy to believe they are a victim waiting to happen, unless they arm themselves against the storm?

 

One of my issues that's been beaten to death is the false sense of security that we're all driven to wear flimsy paper (or cotton) masks.

You said yourself in a previous post:
"So are hospitals getting paid more to treat covid,,,yes. And that's cause they have to dress up like astronauts to treat you. They have to quarantine and quarter off entire units."

These experts are telling us to wear masks everywhere while they're dressing up like astronauts. If they know that it's not good enough for them, then why aren't the experts saying it's either not good enough, wear a hazmat suit or don't bother? I mean, there have been some, but those videos get banned/removed as soon as they go viral. 😐

[lazuli16]

8 minutes ago, lodibricks said:

One of my issues that's been beaten to death is the false sense of security that we're all driven to wear flimsy paper (or cotton) masks.

[Brystheguy]

6 minutes ago, lodibricks said:

One of my issues that's been beaten to death is the false sense of security that we're all driven to wear flimsy paper (or cotton) masks.

You said yourself in a previous post:
"So are hospitals getting paid more to treat covid,,,yes. And that's cause they have to dress up like astronauts to treat you. They have to quarantine and quarter off entire units."

These experts are telling us to wear masks everywhere while they're dressing up like astronauts. If they know that it's not good enough for them, then why aren't the experts saying it's either not good enough, wear a hazmat suit or don't bother? I mean, there have been some, but those videos get banned/removed as soon as they go viral. 😐

This is like saying if you can't brush your teeth for two minutes, floss, and use mouthwash every time, you shouldn't do anything at all. Masks are a pragmatic response to the ideal solution.

[exciter1]

2 minutes ago, Brystheguy said:

This is like saying if you can't brush your teeth for two minutes, floss, and use mouthwash every time, you shouldn't do anything at all. Masks are a pragmatic response to the ideal solution.

All I know is, I've had the healthiest Winter/Fall/Spring that I can remember in a long long time.

I am tempted to wear a mask in common areas for a long time.  Although, if I go to a concert, I may let caution fly.

[Mathew]

11 minutes ago, exciter1 said:

All I know is, I've had the healthiest Winter/Fall/Spring that I can remember in a long long time.

I am tempted to wear a mask in common areas for a long time.  Although, if I go to a concert, I may let caution fly.

You’ve also worked from home and left the house a lot less over the past year. We all had covid last after my kids went back to in person learning. They wear masks and social distance in school. 

[keymomachine]

30 minutes ago, Mathew said:

Doctors are all experts, right?  Are doctors always right?  Are all doctors equal?  If you just accept everything without question then you’re a sheep. 

Lol, no one said that. Many medical doctors are actually idiots who memorized a lot of terms in order to get a high paying job with lots of cultural esteem. Maybe get a second opinion. 

5 minutes ago, lodibricks said:

One of my issues that's been beaten to death is the false sense of security that we're all driven to wear flimsy paper (or cotton) masks.

You said yourself in a previous post:
"So are hospitals getting paid more to treat covid,,,yes. And that's cause they have to dress up like astronauts to treat you. They have to quarantine and quarter off entire units."

These experts are telling us to wear masks everywhere while they're dressing up like astronauts. If they know that it's not good enough for them, then why aren't the experts saying it's either not good enough, wear a hazmat suit or don't bother? I mean, there have been some, but those videos get banned/removed as soon as they go viral. 😐

Wait, we're straight up a year into mask mandates and you're still questioning their efficacy? The surgical and cloth masks we wear in stores are to keep as much of our germy bits to ourselves as we can. In the hospital, where people have serious infections and are probably coughing up a storm and on oxygen, it's much harder to contain the germs, thus space suits for the workers.

After working the election last fall, I made sure to exchange info with the other workers to contact trace when we almost certainly got Covid. But despite working in too close of quarters and having hundreds of people in and out all day, none of us got sick. Everyone coming in to vote wore a mask, only a handful didn't cover their nose. I worked with those same women on Tuesday they reported losing several relatives to Covid in the months since, I've been much more fortunate, only my sister in law ended up in the ER but recovered shortly after.

[exciter1]

7 minutes ago, Mathew said:

You’ve also worked from home and left the house a lot less over the past year. We all had covid last after my kids went back to in person learning. They wear masks and social distance in school. 

My kids have been at school with in person learning since last August.  We had to keep them home and get them tested the weeks they had annual bronchitis and strep was going around.

It seems I'm either at Wal-Mart, Kroger, Lowe's, UPS, USPS, FedEx getting carryout multiple days a week.

[lodibricks]

8 minutes ago, Brystheguy said:

This is like saying if you can't brush your teeth for two minutes, floss, and use mouthwash every time, you shouldn't do anything at all. Masks are a pragmatic response to the ideal solution.

I'm never good with analogies, but if we're saying, "It's better than nothing," I'll agree with that. I think the bigger range in disagreement is the level of protection is actually provides, but still 1% is better than nothing.

It's hard not get foil hats out on how all this has been handled. Originally thought that we would lock down for a few weeks to flatten the curve, I was like "good luck with that." People really felt it would just disappear. We still have flu shots every year, so why would this be any different? Over a year later, we're still mostly locked down, and still having surges in places with tighter restrictions.

When this started and we knew nothing, people among myself thought, let the at-risk people stay home and the rest of us can be more cautious. Instead, we affected 100% of people, lost jobs, business, and are sending out trillions we'll owe. It's just insane how this has been handled. I imagined with this kind of reaction, 1 in 5 of us would no longer be here. It's not even close.

[Mathew]

2 minutes ago, exciter1 said:

My kids have been at school with in person learning since last August.  We've had to keep them home and get them tested the weeks they had annual bronchitis and strep was going around.

That’s my point.  Kids are still the primary germ carriers.  Before kids I’d get sick maybe once a year with a cold. After kids I would usually catch whatever they brought home from daycare or school. 

[exracer327]

I think more people are finally doing what we should have been doing all along:

   1) coughing and sneezing into our arm sleeve (including while wearing a mask) to keep from infecting someone else and

   2) washing hands with soap and water to keep us from touching our eyes, nose, and ears with potential viruses.

I can count on one hand the number of handshakes I have seen in the past year.

Anyone seen how few flu cases there have been this winter.  lol, duh.

 

[Darth_Raichu]

1 hour ago, mudcatsfan said:

So can we all agree that we live in a world where it's impossible to know everything?

If that's the case, why do people feel like they need to do their own research as opposed to trusting an expert in the field?

What makes you think that you're more likely to discover in a weeks or months or years worth of independent research that you would be more qualified to make a decision than someone who went to school for a decade studying this one specific thing?

 Further why does everyone think that someone is out to get them? Why do we presume that someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes and hurt you?

 Where does the distrust come from? Where is the evidence that it has been happening? Why are people so happy to believe they are a victim waiting to happen, unless they arm themselves against the storm?

 

Not that I do not believe in experts, I distrust the mainstream media.  The media are supposed to do the research and summarize all of the information.  But due to political bias and or sheer incompetence, the mainstream media have not been doing their jobs this past 5-7 years.  They left out important information and or straight up fabricated "proofs" to satisfy their own narratives.  This is why I have to go to the sources myself and do my own research.

Here is an example of their incompetence: Nicholas Sandmann.  CNN, NY Times, etc just could not wait to report and or mock bunch of white high school kids  who seemingly had an altercation vs an old Native American in front of the Lincoln Memorial back in January 2019.  They based their reporting on 1-2 short video clips.  Anyone who watched the full clip of the event that was released a few hours later could clearly see that the kids did not start the shit with the old man.  In fact, the old man was the one who approached and tried to start things up with the kids.  CNN could have sent a reporter from their DC bureau there to do actual investigative reporting before defaming the kids.  That would have taken, what, 1-2 hours to do?

[brickvoyeur]

4 minutes ago, exracer327 said:

Anyone seen how few flu cases there have been this winter

 

 

Compare it to last years numbers and the difference is insane. One side will say that the flu cases were all marked as Covid this year, the other side will say it's proof that masks help.

Amazingly, countries like South Korea and Japan practice mask wearing every year in order to stop germs. Their numbers are low each year, and because it wasn't a huge change for them, they did well against COVID even with their much denser population.

 

[lodibricks]

8 minutes ago, exracer327 said:

I think more people are finally doing what we should have been doing all along:

   1) coughing and sneezing into our arm sleeve (including while wearing a mask) to keep from infecting someone else and

   2) washing hands with soap and water to keep us from touching our eyes, nose, and ears with potential viruses.

I can count on one hand the number of handshakes I have seen in the past year.

Anyone seen how few flu cases there have been this winter.  lol, duh.

 

There's no flu because they're all considered COVID. 😛 Kidding!....or am I?

Should we be bumping elbows if that's where we cough now?

[Pedilego]

58 minutes ago, mudcatsfan said:

If that's the case, why do people feel like they need to do their own research as opposed to trusting an expert in the field?

What makes you think that you're more likely to discover in a weeks or months or years worth of independent research that you would be more qualified to make a decision than someone who went to school for a decade studying this one specific thing?

 Where does the distrust come from? Where is the evidence that it has been happening?

Are you genuinely interested in the answers? Because that's what I've been attempting to address.

I would post them here but I want to be very careful not to cross specific lines and to keep the conversation civil, so I've remained intentionally vague at the expense of citing concrete, substantive examples that'd better help my case. Per my previous message, I would be happy to share some of them via DM. I can recommend books, videos, podcasts, articles,  documentation distributed directly to/by schools.

 

I have a sense that you think I'm trying to do the science myself (I say that in jest... partially) but that's not how it works:

I seek out non-partisan expert sources of information (easier said than done for a litany of reasons), listen to their perspectives, learn about their biases (which takes time), and research/fact-check their information (particularly when it comes to things that contradict the popular narrative; easier said than done for obvious reasons). If they prove credible for an extended amount of time, I continue using them as a source of (usually) reliable information or opinions, and continue research/fact-check their information (particularly when it comes to things that contradict the popular narrative).

So be warned, if you do take me up on my offer, it'll require time spent listening/reading (usually from sources that have been falsely slandered for having non-mainstream opinion[s]), followed-up by time spent trying to figure out if their logical yet inexplicably narrative-breaking information is true.

 

3 hours ago, keymomachine said:

You're complaining about the politicization of everything but in reality you've probably just found yourself on the other side of hegemony for the first time so suddenly it's become an issue for you. In reality basically everything is and has always been political because we live in a society.

I actually agree that telling people to "trust the doctors" and "trust science" isn't good health and science communication, but it turns out people really cling to bad arguments and emotional appeals even when presented with good arguments and reasoning, so getting frustrated and hitting people over the head is often what ends up happening. I have a friend who is a right wing guy who posts a lot of memes on facebook and I spend time debunking them and pointing out how they are wrong, to which he usually replies something about how he was in the Army and fought for this country and FREEEEDOM!

I believe you're suggesting that:

• pervasive bias hasn't changed, rather,
• the dominant opinions have changed, and, therefore,
• my issue is the dominant opinions - not the bias.
• As a result, 'I think my issue is bias but it's actually the opinions'.

If I captured that correctly: it's a reasonable and expected assertion about my motives, however, I disagree with the premise. It's actually backwards: I "took the red pill" because people that I disagreed with were being silenced. In other words, I was upset at the bias (and means being used) despite it favoring my views. After becoming aware of the tactics being used to mislead me, I've formed some much more nuanced opinions.

[JimboJet]

5 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Not that I do not believe in experts, I distrust the mainstream media.  The media are supposed to do the research and summarize all of the information.  But due to political bias and or sheer incompetence, the mainstream media have not been doing their jobs this past 5-7 years.  They left out important information and or straight up fabricated "proofs" to satisfy their own narratives.  This is why I have to go to the sources myself and do my own research.

Here is an example of their incompetence: Nicholas Sandmann.  CNN, NY Times, etc just could not wait to report and or mock bunch of white high school kids  who seemingly had an altercation vs an old Native American in front of the Lincoln Memorial back in January 2019.  They based their reporting on 1-2 short video clips.  Anyone who watched the full clip of the event that was released a few hours later could clearly see that the kids did not start the **** with the old man.  In fact, the old man was the one who approached and tried to start things up with the kids.  CNN could have sent a reporter from their DC bureau there to do actual investigative reporting before defaming the kids.  That would have taken, what, 1-2 hours to do?

^^^THIS

The New York Times and Washington Post were once paragons of journalism, now they are little more than partisan hacks.  WaPo implemented the tag line "Democracy Dies in Darkness" during the Trump administrations. What a joke. The darkness is what they sell to their subscribers, left wing lies that occasionally result in a small retraction when proven false. Pretty sad to see the downfall.

This article should be any eye opener for anyone that blindly reads and believes the New York Times and Washington Post.  Both like to criticize Fox News and others for being partisan.  Pot meet kettle.

https://www.city-journal.org/journalism-advocacy-over-reporting

 

[exracer327]

1 minute ago, lodibricks said:

Should we be bumping elbows if that's where we cough now?

I have never coughed into my elbow.  Upper arm (bicep / deltoid area).  It's what teachers have been teaching our children since they were in preschool.

I confess, at the beginning of covid-19 my son (15 at the time - who has been taught by my wife and I his entire life to cough/sneeze into his upper arm) coughed at the dinner table without covering his mouth.  After I called him out for his unacceptable behavior I then told him that if he did that at school and one of his fellow students punched him in the mouth I would support the kid who punched him.  (Right or wrong, I would rather him think about it than it actually happening to him.)  He was a bit shocked but ultimately got the point. 

The high school ended up shutting down two weeks later anyway.

[Mathew]

15 minutes ago, brickvoyeur said:

 

Compare it to last years numbers and the difference is insane. One side will say that the flu cases were all marked as Covid this year, the other side will say it's proof that masks help.

Amazingly, countries like South Korea and Japan practice mask wearing every year in order to stop germs. Their numbers are low each year, and because it wasn't a huge change for them, they did well against COVID even with their much denser population.

 

If mask wearing in Japan is so common then why was there a shortage:  

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/25/national/japan-mask-shortages-covid19/

The truth is that mask usage around the world was fairly low except in certain parts of Asia before covid. 
 

My concern with long term mask usage is that I believe that it is a constant reminder and conditioning that humans are somehow biohazards.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Mathew

[exracer327]

10 minutes ago, Mathew said:

If mask wearing in Japan is so common then why was there a shortage:  

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/25/national/japan-mask-shortages-covid19/

There was an international shortage.  At the time N-95 masks were almost entire manufactured in China.  Due to covid-19 China shut down production and shipping for a bit.  (Perhaps hoarded a few masks along the way for their 1.4 billion people?)  Hence why companies in the USA started producing them on an emergency basis.  Today there are 10 companies manufacturing N-95 masks in the USA.

Edited April 8, 2021 by exracer327

[Achilles]

3 minutes ago, JimboJet said:

^^^THIS

The New York Times and Washington Post were once paragons of journalism, now they are little more than partisan hacks.  WaPo implemented the tag line "Democracy Dies in Darkness" during the Trump administrations. What a joke. The darkness is what they sell to their subscribers, left wing lies that occasionally result in a small retraction when proven false. Pretty sad to see the downfall.

This article should be any eye opener for anyone that blindly reads and believes the New York Times and Washington Post.  Both like to criticize Fox News and others for being partisan.  Pot meet kettle.

https://www.city-journal.org/journalism-advocacy-over-reporting

 

Why should that article be an eye opener?

Please explain to me why "City-Journal.org" has any more credibility than The New York Times, CNN, Fox News, or any other media outlet? Other than it agrees with your world view? What exactly makes them more deserving of trust, or makes their information more true?

[Phil B]

Let me just add that the US had a Pandemic response team/task force, established by President Obama when Ebola fears were running high, that got abolished in 2018. I'd like to think that had that team stayed in place there would have been a better response to this crisis.

That said, except for very few countries (NZ, Australia, some Asian countries), even though approaches were radically different, all have ended up in the same disaster. There are only very few roads that lead to "normal life". NZ and AU have shown how it can be done. I know from friends down under that it wasn't easy and required big sacrifices, but now they are reaping the benefits.

[dennugsmello]

 

I could post hundreds of examples of media theatrics, but will post only the first four from my large folder. I’m not trying to draw attention to the issues in the screenshots, just showcasing the power of the headline. 
 

Now remember that only 2 out of 10 read the article and 8 of 10 only read the headline. Big media has always known this, and use it to shape public opinion. Usually inside the article things can sometimes get fair, but when nobody reads it, does it even matter? 

It does not matter if you are left or right wing or somewhere in the middle. Like it or not, there is a path set out by big media for you to consume. It’s up to you whether you take the bait or not.