What did you do today?

[$20 on joe vs dan]

5 minutes ago, SpaceFan9 said:

  I am against the mob mentality that everyone should take it, though.  I think that way lies a dangerous path.

isn't this the point of a vaccine...everyone should take it (unless specific medical reason).

 

[Ed Mack]

6 minutes ago, SpaceFan9 said:

I'm sorry to hear that people close to you have been so sick.  Your experience mirrors my own.  Some families get hit hard, some get hardly a sniffle. It's a Sofie's Choice: take your chance with the vaccine or with the virus---both have risks.

And, I'm not saying 'do nothing'.  The vaccine is one potential solution, but I believe there are others.  The people that I know that had mild symptoms stayed on a steady vitamin and OTC drug regimen both pre-infection and during, and that's what I've chosen to do.  Is my risk of transmission greater than if I got the vaccine instead? I don't think one can say at this point. 

I'm not against the vaccine per se.  I am against the mob mentality that everyone should take it, though.  I think that way lies a dangerous path.

Right, that's what is so tricky with this virus.  Some people have zero symptoms, while others die or have a real hard time with it.  I respect it, but don't let it rule me.  I have been dealing with thousands of customers a week (wearing a 3M shield) since this all started and the vaccine at least gives me a little piece of mind after a year of worrying daily.  I am a 53 year old man with 53 year old issues, so who knows how I would react.  If was was 18 again and in great shape, I would say "F" it.  I am not and I have a family to look out for.  I speak to hundreds, if not thousands of people weekly and hear many stories, both good and bad.  I am like a bartender, so if can pass along some good advice, I will.  Stay safe...

[mudcatsfan]

40 minutes ago, SpaceFan9 said:

. 

I'm not against the vaccine per se.  I am against the mob mentality that everyone should take it, though.  I think that way lies a dangerous path.

It's not mob mentality to listen to epidemiologists about taking a vaccine. 

It's not political.

It's about drowning out the virus before new variants emerge because people went with their gut, their preference, or their facebook research and we all end up locked down for another year.

Listen to doctors,  get the &*/$&# shot.

 

[$20 on joe vs dan]

3 minutes ago, mudcatsfan said:

It's not mob mentality to listen to epidemiologists about taking a vaccine. 

It's not political.

It's about drowning out the virus before new variants emerge because people went with their gut, their preference, or their facebook research and we all end up locked down for another year.

Listen to doctors,  get the &*/$&# shot.

 

yes, if we had this many antivaxxers in the past..we'd still be dealing with polio

[minicoopers11]

48 minutes ago, SpaceFan9 said:

I'm sorry to hear that people close to you have been so sick.  Your experience mirrors my own.  Some families get hit hard, some get hardly a sniffle. It's a Sofie's Choice: take your chance with the vaccine or with the virus---both have risks.

And, I'm not saying 'do nothing'.  The vaccine is one potential solution, but I believe there are others.  The people that I know that had mild symptoms stayed on a steady vitamin and OTC drug regimen both pre-infection and during, and that's what I've chosen to do.  Is my risk of transmission greater than if I got the vaccine instead? I don't think one can say at this point. 

I'm not against the vaccine per se.  I am against the mob mentality that everyone should take it, though.  I think that way lies a dangerous path.

Not going to judge you and please don't take it that way, but mob mentality is the point of vaccines. Otherwise, the herd won't get effective immunity to protect those that cannot take the vaccine.

[SpaceFan9]

36 minutes ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

isn't this the point of a vaccine...everyone should take it (unless specific medical reason).

 

 

My perspective is that vaccines were invented to defend against diseases for which there is/was no treatment.  covid is treatable, especially if detected early.  The covid vaccine is experimental.  long term side effects are unknown.

And the epidemiologists I listen to say dont bother with the vaccine if you are otherwise healthy.

Thanks for the healthy debate.  I'm headed off to work now.

[dennugsmello]

50 minutes ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

also less rolls of the dice for the virus to mutate into something worse...which will impact EVERYONE in a real bad way

Possibly. Possibly not. What you say is not a fact.

Like or not, we are in a mass human trial of a new technology for disease control. Anybody making claims of what theses vaccines will ultimately do, or not do, is irresponsible. We, and the science community, are currently in a wait and see scenario.  

Leaky Vaccines Enhance Spread of Deadlier Chicken Viruses (nationalgeographic.com)

[$20 on joe vs dan]

3 minutes ago, dennugsmello said:

Possibly. Possibly not. What you say is not a fact.

Like or not, we are in a mass human trial of a new technology for disease control. Anybody making claims of what theses vaccines will ultimately do, or not do, is irresponsible. We, and the science community, are currently in a wait and see scenario.  

Leaky Vaccines Enhance Spread of Deadlier Chicken Viruses (nationalgeographic.com)

so it's not scientific fact that given enough chances to mutate a virus may mutate into something worse?

I believe Darwin would like a word with you.

The current Covid-19 virus mutated from something only active in certain animals into something that affects people very easily...this is readily known...even if one believes the theory that it was originally manufactured in a lab; that doesn't disprove the above statement that it can get worse the longer it's active in the world. Also there's ample evidence that Covid-19 has been mutating into something worse.  Luckily, so far, most of the vaccines are still effective on the variants...but for how long? 

some may say "what about the flu virus" been around for ages and never turned into an extinction event

Well i get that lay people think all viruses are similar...but it's actually a whole class of species.  If let's say the flu virus is like an ant and Covid-19 is like a scorpion...both may mutate...but one is a lot closer to being a killer than the other. 

[dennugsmello]

6 minutes ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

yes, if we had this many antivaxxers in the past..we'd still be dealing with polio

Let me state that I'm not an anti-vaxxer. However, I and many others, do share a hesitancy towards a new vaccine technology. This does not make all of us anti-vaxxers. Please keep your Facebook buzzwords to yourself and think a little before painting people with such a broad brush. 

mRNA vaccine review final.pdf (upenn.edu)

Read this if you like. Just the evidence summary. Realize everyone is waiting on short and long term results. Including doctors. 

26 minutes ago, mudcatsfan said:

 

Listen to doctors,  get the &*/$&# shot.

 

And finally, please remember that being hesitant is not necessarily against. 

[$20 on joe vs dan]

20 minutes ago, dennugsmello said:

Possibly. Possibly not. What you say is not a fact.

Like or not, we are in a mass human trial of a new technology for disease control. Anybody making claims of what theses vaccines will ultimately do, or not do, is irresponsible. We, and the science community, are currently in a wait and see scenario.  

Leaky Vaccines Enhance Spread of Deadlier Chicken Viruses (nationalgeographic.com)

also your article highlights my point better 

It's primary message is rooted in the science that given enough chances, a virus will get worse.  The current Covid vaccines enable ones immune system to fight the virus...it doesn't just suppress the symptoms like the chicken virus mentioned in the article.

[Pseudoty]

I went to the beach. The masks outdoors is just overkill in my mind, but I have had 2 doses of Moderna onboard for 2 months now. Mask compliance on the Boardwalk was around 98% which was shocking and even those not wearing them properly had them. Last summer when things were worse mask compliance was around 50% at best. Amazing how you can change human behavior. 
 

Look at that beautiful clean Atlantic Ocean   

Edited April 6, 2021 by Pseudoty

[$20 on joe vs dan]

1 minute ago, dennugsmello said:

Let me state that I'm not an anti-vaxxer. However, I and many others, do share a hesitancy towards a new vaccine technology. This does not make all of us anti-vaxxers. Please keep your Facebook buzzwords to yourself and think a little before painting people with such a broad brush. 

mRNA vaccine review final.pdf (upenn.edu)

Read this if you like. Just the evidence summary. Realize everyone is waiting on short and long term results. Including doctors. 

And finally, please remember that being hesitant is not necessarily against. 

sorry for tossing the "label" out there... but every month there seems to be new variants discovered...it's just a matter of time till the vaccines are no longer effective

this means we, as a society, cannot afford the time for all the hesitant folks to wait till it's proven safe long term.

[Ed Mack]

2 minutes ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

so it's not scientific fact that given enough chances to mutate a virus may mutate into something worse?

I believe Darwin would like a word with you.

The current Covid-19 virus mutated from something only active in certain animals into something that affects people very easily...this is readily known...even if one believes the theory that it was originally manufactured in a lab; that doesn't disprove the above statement that it can get worse the longer it's active in the world. Also there's ample evidence that Covid-19 has been mutating into something worse.  Luckily, so far, most of the vaccines are still effective on the variants...but for how long? 

some may say "what about the flu virus" been around for ages and never turned into an extinction event

Well i get that lay people think all viruses are similar...but it's actually a whole class of species.  If let's say the flu virus is like an ant and Covid-19 is like a scorpion...both may mutate...but one is a lot closer to being a killer than the other. 

From an old microbiology student (me), more times than not, the virus will mutate to a weaker version given time.  Kill all the hosts and the virus disappears.  That being said, you never know when a mutant virus will develop that will be way more dangerous than the current strains, thus the importance for a worldwide vaccination effort.

[dennugsmello]

1 minute ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

 

In the science that given enough chances, a virus will get worse.  

Define worse. 

More contagious and less deadly? Because that is how most viruses behave. From what I've seen the Covid variants are less deadly. 

[$20 on joe vs dan]

5 minutes ago, dennugsmello said:

Define worse. 

More contagious and less deadly? Because that is how most viruses behave. From what I've seen the Covid variants are less deadly. 

the scary thing about Covid-19 is that it has already demonstrated a dramatically wide range of effects from asymptomatic to deadly.

So it's ALREADY deadly...but currently only selectively so.  What if whatever is keeping it from being deadly to most people...becomes that variant?

[fuzzy_bricks]

5 minutes ago, Pseudoty said:

I went to the beach. The masks outdoors is just overkill in my mind, but I have had 2 doses of Moderna onboard for 2 months now. Mask compliance on the Boardwalk was around 98% which was shocking and even those not wearing them properly had them. Last summer when things were worse mask compliance was around 50% at best. Amazing how you can change human behavior. 
 

Look at that beautiful clean Atlantic Ocean   

 

This is crazy to me.  Masks are no longer suggested/required in our town.

44 minutes ago, mudcatsfan said:

Listen to doctors,  get the &*/$&# shot.

Remember when smoking was good for you.

https://www.history.com/news/cigarette-ads-doctors-smoking-endorsement

[spener90]

Just now, $20 on joe vs dan said:

the scary thing about Covid-19 is that it has already demonstrated a dramatically wide range of effects from asymptomatic to deadly.

So it's ALREADY deadly...but currently only selectively so.  What if whatever is keeping it from being deadly to most people...becomes that variant?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the largest risk factors for hospitalization and death are obesity and age, which really has nothing to do with the virus at all.

#EatasaladAmerica

[dennugsmello]

1 minute ago, Ed Mack said:

From an old microbiology student (me), more times than not, the virus will mutate to a weaker version given time.  Kill all the hosts and the virus disappears.  That being said, you never know when a mutant virus will develop that will be way more dangerous than the current strains, thus the importance for a worldwide vaccination effort.

This is correct. Also, from a Biology grad a long, long, long time ago. 

Let me ask you Ed, as a microbiologist. You stress the importance of a worldwide vaccination effort, which I don't disagree with. However, is it prudent to rush standardized drug trial protocols on a disease with a 99.4 survival rate? Especially a treatment incorporating brand new technology, untested on human beings? 

I'm not trying to be combative with you all. I'm just surprised at how quick everyone is to dismiss the potential pitfalls of experimental technology. 

[spener90]

2 minutes ago, dennugsmello said:

This is correct. Also, from a Biology grad a long, long, long time ago. 

Let me ask you Ed, as a microbiologist. You stress the importance of a worldwide vaccination effort, which I don't disagree with. However, is it prudent to rush standardized drug trial protocols on a disease with a 99.4 survival rate? Especially a treatment incorporating brand new technology, untested on human beings? 

I'm not trying to be combative with you all. I'm just surprised at how quick everyone is to dismiss the potential pitfalls of experimental technology. 

What I find amusing is all of the push that "doctors" are supporting this.

I know plenty of doctors that aren't getting the vaccine until more research has been completed on it. Anyone that is currently getting the vaccine is basically part of an extremely large clinical trial.

[Ed Mack]

6 minutes ago, dennugsmello said:

This is correct. Also, from a Biology grad a long, long, long time ago. 

Let me ask you Ed, as a microbiologist. You stress the importance of a worldwide vaccination effort, which I don't disagree with. However, is it prudent to rush standardized drug trial protocols on a disease with a 99.4 survival rate? Especially a treatment incorporating brand new technology, untested on human beings? 

I'm not trying to be combative with you all. I'm just surprised at how quick everyone is to dismiss the potential pitfalls of experimental technology. 

LOL...Dr. Ed to you.  I am a science guy.  Yes, I fear the future side effects of this new technology.  One major issue that I read about is cancer and how this vaccine will disrupt the body's immune system fighting it.  I'm sure there are other issues as well.  With any sort of medication, there is nothing without side effects.  Even aspirin gives people ulcers.  

That being said, what I have witnessed over the past year with regards to people getting sick and the mental stress it is putting people under (including myself and my family), I believe it is worth the risk.  Many people and their kids have lost a year of life in many ways.  Not seeing friends, family or going to school or work is life changing.  We are social animals. This is a wicked disease and the politicians and media outlets that have weaponized it to remain or gain power should go to Hell.  

Whether the vaccine is safe or not, whether it works or not, time will tell.  But to me and my family, it has given us a little more positive outlook and hope that we can all get back to normal.  I miss going to swim practice and eating at Red Lobster.  Sounds silly, but I am willing to take a leap of faith and give it a shot.  I mean how bad can it be?  After my first shot, my private parts got bigger and I could read minds.  That's pretty cool.  

[spener90]

8 minutes ago, Ed Mack said:

After my first shot, my private parts got bigger and I could read minds.  That's pretty cool.  

Results may vary.

[Mathew]

2 hours ago, Phil B said:

Just like you don't wear a mask to protect yourself necessarily, you wear a mask to protect others from yourself potentially being infected/asymptomatic - 

I’m still not sold on how effective masks are in stopping covid. The chart you posted is not very scientific. We got covid last year and we’re pretty sure it came from my son who had just gone back to in person learning at school. The school enforced masks and social distancing. 

[mudcatsfan]

1 hour ago, SpaceFan9 said:

My perspective is that vaccines were invented to defend against diseases for which there is/was no treatment.  covid is treatable, especially if detected early.  The covid vaccine is experimental.  long term side effects are unknown.

And the epidemiologists I listen to say dont bother with the vaccine if you are otherwise healthy.

Thanks for the healthy debate.  I'm headed off to work now.

 Normally if someone disagrees with me I'm happy to let them do so. Especially if it's a matter of opinion. However this is not a matter of opinion. When it comes to public health, and airborne transmitted disease, your hesitancy directly impacts people around you. This isn't a wearing seatbelts thing this is a drunk driving thing.

Please read this article .  It directly addresses most of the misinformation concerns people repeat.. 1st the RNA cannot impact the nucleus of your DNA and it cannot be passed on to future generations. Also, RNA vaccines are not brand new. they have been in use before COVID. Additionally 0 steps were skipped in the trials for this medicine.  they were done quickly but 0 steps were skipped.

https://m.ufhealth.org/news/2021/unsure-about-covid-19-vaccine-uf-health-s-chief-epidemiologist-has-answers

Epidemiologists OVERWHELMINGLY AGREE everyone who can, should get the shot. They have zero incentive to be wrong about that.

There is no conspiracy to get everyone microchipped. We already did that to ourselves with our phones . 

If you care about people other than you not getting sick, get the shot. If you care about small businesses reopening, get the shot. If you want concerts and ballgames, get the shot.

 

Please people, get the shot. I cant do another year like this.

 

 

 

 

[dennugsmello]

9 minutes ago, mudcatsfan said:

0 steps were skipped in the trials for this medicine.  they were done quickly but 0 steps were skipped.

I believe all the trial phases are being run concurrently, not necessarily quickly.

[mudcatsfan]

I tried to find an article of a reputable epidemiologist who does not think everyone should take the vaccine and I found one from UNC Chapel Hill the article title says the vaccine is not a silver bullet. The funny thing is when you read the article the reason she thinks it's not a silver bullet in the United States specifically is people don't believe in vaccines.

"Vaccinations are not the silver bullet for the United States. They may be for other countries, but not here because a significant portion of our population either don’t believe in vaccines or don’t trust them and want to wait for more evidence that they work and are safe. "

 

 So even the most negative article I could find about taking the vaccine says the vaccine isnt a sure thing because people refuse to take them.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminkomlos/2020/12/14/why-this-epidemiologist-says-the-vaccine-is-not-a-silver-bullet-for-the-us/amp/