STAR WARS VIII - "The Last Jedi" - Movie Discussion

[stackables]

15 minutes ago, zaphoid said:

 

 

but it wasn't until  Han said "Together again." and Luke responded with "Wouldn't miss it." that I got really choked up.

Then Chewie growled and everyone chuckled. 

[Grynn]

On 4/5/2018 at 2:38 PM, Will 4 said:

No that was a metphor for them throwing away the Star wars we loved and replacing it with some sad husk which I hope is cancelled for its own sake.

Stating the obvious, but the lightsaber was a metaphor for the majority of fans expectations.

 

I think some folks are stressing a little too much here and becoming delirious!

Reality is, the OT was ridiculous in many ways as well, and some of the storytelling was terrible, we just didn't care as kids and probably looked past it as adults.

New characters, new concept (as of TLJ) and suddenly the rose colored glasses come off. "This isn't my Star Wars, this is crap!" Well, it's really not drastically different, it's just in a completely different context (i.e. CGI, Marvel, Disney, simply being a sequel trilogy, in other words actual competition) and lacks some of the authenticity of the OT. 

I dare say if Star Wars had come out after Indiana Jones, Ghostbusters, Back to the Future, and other classic adventure / sci-fi movies, it wouldn't quite hold the sacred spot in our hearts it does.

Star Wars was novel. The Matrix and LotR were as well but they had to find a different space to shine. Nothing else has achieved the same innovative quality as far as blockbuster fantasy / sci-fi franchises go. Hell just look how much worse the Hobbit was, simply because the creators were trying too hard.

Don't expect the magic to return. If you enjoyed TFA despite the blatent plot plaguarization that's as close as you'll likely get... so try to look past the flaws and accept this is simply another opportunity to be entertained, and you'll be much happier.

[stackables]

52 minutes ago, Grynn said:

Stating the obvious, but the lightsaber was a metaphor for the majority of fans expectations.

 

I think some folks are stressing a little too much here and becoming delirious!

Reality is, the OT was ridiculous in many ways as well, and some of the storytelling was terrible, we just didn't care as kids and probably looked past it as adults.

New characters, new concept (as of TLJ) and suddenly the rose colored glasses come off. "This isn't my Star Wars, this is crap!" Well, it's really not drastically different, it's just in a completely different context (i.e. CGI, Marvel, Disney, simply being a sequel trilogy, in other words actual competition) and lacks some of the authenticity of the OT. 

I dare say if Star Wars had come out after Indiana Jones, Ghostbusters, Back to the Future, and other classic adventure / sci-fi movies, it wouldn't quite hold the sacred spot in our hearts it does.

Star Wars was novel. The Matrix and LotR were as well but they had to find a different space to shine. Nothing else has achieved the same innovative quality as far as blockbuster fantasy / sci-fi franchises go. Hell just look how much worse the Hobbit was, simply because the creators were trying too hard.

Don't expect the magic to return. If you enjoyed TFA despite the blatent plot plaguarization that's as close as you'll likely get... so try to look past the flaws and accept this is simply another opportunity to be entertained, and you'll be much happier.

I don't think this argument really holds up.  The original trilogy was basically a hero's quest and it kept to that format.  The "we were kids back then" doesn't make sense either.  Kids and adults still loved the movies when they came out.  You don't become a cultural phenomena that stands the test of time by a coming out before Indiana Jones or ghostbusters.  You have to be a special movie. 

Only the Last Jedi has earned the wraith of the star wars community.  The force Awakens was ok, I liked Rogue one but the Last Jedi poo pooed on the entire Star Wars mythos. 

[Darth_Raichu]

1 hour ago, Grynn said:

New characters, new concept (as of TLJ) and suddenly the rose colored glasses come off. "This isn't my Star Wars, this is crap!" Well, it's really not drastically different, it's just in a completely different context (i.e. CGI, Marvel, Disney, simply being a sequel trilogy, in other words actual competition) and lacks some of the authenticity of the OT. 

With all due respect, that is a bunch of baloney.  When done right, new characters and new concepts can bring together old and new fans alike.  Case in point: SW Rebels.  It introduced 6 brand new characters (yup, Chopper the droid is a character) and tons of new concepts to enhance the SW universe.   Instead of focusing on the Skywalker bloodline, it brought focus to a small rebel cell on in the outer rim.  These new characters looked and sounded like a part of big SW universe.  From time to time, it brought in characters from OT and PT (good guys and bad) without making them look bad compared to the new characters.  Dare I say the appearance of the old characters enhanced viewers experience and appreciations of those characters.  Watch season 2 finale and tell me that is not an awesome cameo.  Dave Filoni and his team treated the characters (old and new) and the universe with a lot of r-e-s-p-e-c-t (as Aretha Franklin used to say  ).

There was a lack of respect in TLJ, and to a lesser degree TFA. Heck, TLJ could not even respect Poe and Finn who were literally just introduced to the audience 2 years prior.  Both men were relegated to B side quests that ultimately did not matter to the main storyline   How could the fans relate to and rally around those 2 men when they were treated like side characters in their own movies ??   Weren't Rey & these 2 supposed to carry the torch for the new fans?  The fans who supposedly would consume oodles and ooldes of Di$$ney / SW merchandi$e for years to come.

 

 

[gregpj]

5 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Both men were relegated to B side quests that ultimately did not matter to the main storyline  

Rey was relegated to a side quest as well.... besides her one moment with Kylo taking on Snoke's guards (Kylo killed Snoke, Rey was simply a distraction) she wasn't involved with the main plot line at all. Rose had more to do with the main plot that Rey, Poe, Finn and Kylo.

Yay.

[KShine]

The droids were represented well (they are the only ones that really were) - Hopefully they can get rid of all the clearly unstable carbon life forms, and live in peace.

[Grynn]

I enjoy Rebels as well but I don't think you can compare a TV cartoon to a blockbuster movie when talking about fan expectations.

My point is, when you back way, way, way up it's all ridiculous. Laser swords. Stormtroopers. 12 parsecs. Metachlorian conception. Gravity bombs in space. Force ghosts and projections. Perfect timing and coincidence galore.

Do you expect your wife to cook your favorite dish the same way your mom did growing up? It's just not gonna happen. I respect most of the points and arguments of the naysayers but also think a reality check is in order for some.

[stackables]

1 minute ago, Grynn said:

I enjoy Rebels as well but I don't think you can compare a TV cartoon to a blockbuster movie when talking about fan expectations.

My point is, when you back way, way, way up it's all ridiculous. Laser swords. Stormtroopers. 12 parsecs. Metachlorian conception. Gravity bombs in space. Force ghosts and projections. Perfect timing and coincidence galore.

Do you expect your wife to cook your favorite dish the same way your mom did growing up? It's just not gonna happen. I respect most of the points and arguments of the naysayers but also think a reality check is in order for some.

We call that genre Science Fiction.

[Grynn]

Most science fiction I've been exposed to is far more believable than Star Wars. 

In my opinion TLJ is a better movie than the prequel trilogy as a whole. Certainly flawed but there is also depth there that Anakin's early story simply failed to present in as enjoyable a manner.

I may be in the minority but I at least appreciate the attempt to grow an exciting new saga without completely ignoring the original. Not an easy task despite what all us armchair quarterbacks think.

[Mathew]

2 hours ago, Darth_Raichu said:

There was a lack of respect in TLJ, and to a lesser degree TFA. Heck, TLJ could not even respect Poe and Finn who were literally just introduced to the audience 2 years prior.  Both men were relegated to B side quests that ultimately did not matter to the main storyline   How could the fans relate to and rally around those 2 men when they were treated like side characters in their own movies ??   Weren't Rey & these 2 supposed to carry the torch for the new fans?  The fans who supposedly would consume oodles and ooldes of Di$$ney / SW merchandi$e for years to come.

A lot of the hate is directed at the treatment of Luke but Poe and Finn are actually worse.  Originally Rian wrote the side quest to Casino Royale with Poe and Finn.  But due to the Disney NWO matriarchy  "Rose" Tico was forced into the plot.  Terrible decision.  Besides keeping Finn in line her character was to appeal to the Asian audience and it backfired big time as TLJ bombed in China.  So Poe gets relegated to the dumb white guy role and Finn is the tag-along, token black guy who needs a strong woman to keep him in line without Rey around.  The movie just sucks.  It's not the nail in the coffin (Solo will be that) but it did a pretty good job of damaging the franchise as a whole.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Mathew

[stackables]

3 minutes ago, Mathew said:

A lot of the hate is directed at the treatment of Luke but Poe and Finn are actually worse.  Originally Rian wrote the side quest to Casino Royale with Poe and Finn.  But due to the Disney NWO matriarchy  "Rose" Tico was forced into the plot.  Terrible decision.  Besides keeping Finn in line her character was to appeal to the Asian audience and it backfired big time as TLJ bombed in China.  So Poe gets relegated to the dumb white guy role and Finn is the tag-along, token black guy who needs a strong woman to keep him in line without Rey around.  The movie just sucks.  It's not the nail in the coffin (Solo will be that) but it did a pretty good job of damaging the franchise as a whole.

Yep, I came out of the movie like both characters less.  That isn't good writing.

[Darth_Raichu]

10 hours ago, Grynn said:

I enjoy Rebels as well but I don't think you can compare a TV cartoon to a blockbuster movie when talking about fan expectations.

My point is, when you back way, way, way up it's all ridiculous. Laser swords. Stormtroopers. 12 parsecs. Metachlorian conception. Gravity bombs in space. Force ghosts and projections. Perfect timing and coincidence galore.

Do you expect your wife to cook your favorite dish the same way your mom did growing up? It's just not gonna happen. I respect most of the points and arguments of the naysayers but also think a reality check is in order for some.

Why can't I expect BOTH to be good ???  If 1 can be great with less budget, less exposure, and less promotion, shouldn't I expect the one with high budget and promotion to be at least on par if not better ?????  

For the record, I like BOTH my mom's and my wife's cooking.  I NEVER expect them to be the same.  The differences are the things that make me like both.  Plus, if both were exactly the same, I would have had less reasons to visit my parents

[Will 4]

5 hours ago, Grynn said:

In my opinion TLJ is a better movie than the prequel trilogy as a whole.

Liar

Edited April 7, 2018 by Will 4

[RKI_Fismo]

9 hours ago, Grynn said:

Do you expect your wife to cook your favorite dish the same way your mom did growing up? It's just not gonna happen. I respect most of the points and arguments of the naysayers but also think a reality check is in order for some.

I expect the people who support the film to accept that a lot of people don't feel/think the same as them. I've seen many many examples

on this thread & elsewhere, supporters of the film trying to discredit/insult those who don't like TLJ. We "naysayers" are focused on pouring

scorn on the film & the decision makers responsible for it's production. Throwing mud at those who disapprove just aligns you with the ideology

behind the film in the respect that you are ant free speech/pro censorship which is just going to provoke this kind of response. Stick to the film please. 

[exciter1]

I enjoy Rebels as well but I don't think you can compare a TV cartoon to a blockbuster movie when talking about fan expectations.
My point is, when you back way, way, way up it's all ridiculous. Laser swords. Stormtroopers. 12 parsecs. Metachlorian conception. Gravity bombs in space. Force ghosts and projections. Perfect timing and coincidence galore.
Do you expect your wife to cook your favorite dish the same way your mom did growing up? It's just not gonna happen. I respect most of the points and arguments of the naysayers but also think a reality check is in order for some.

That’s why I cook it, so I can only blame myself if it doesn’t turn out right.

[gregpj]

10 hours ago, Mathew said:

A lot of the hate is directed at the treatment of Luke but Poe and Finn are actually worse.  Originally Rian wrote the side quest to Casino Royale with Poe and Finn.  But due to the Disney NWO matriarchy  "Rose" Tico was forced into the plot.  Terrible decision.  Besides keeping Finn in line her character was to appeal to the Asian audience and it backfired big time as TLJ bombed in China.  So Poe gets relegated to the dumb white guy role and Finn is the tag-along, token black guy who needs a strong woman to keep him in line without Rey around.  The movie just sucks.  It's not the nail in the coffin (Solo will be that) but it did a pretty good job of damaging the franchise as a whole.

I don't know why Rose was in the film, but I agree she didn't need to be.

If you send Poe and Finn on that side-story as a sanctioned mission by the purple haired people eater, then it becomes an essential plot point (whether it's any good isn't what I'm saying). Then you send Rey to see a tired and broken Luke (I was ok with that) who acts more like Yoda than Walter Matthau's character from Grumpy Old Men and is quirky but maybe teaches Rey there is more than just the force out in the universe (the last Jedi he is, Rey learns nothing about being a Jedi and I'm going to be pissed if they call her one in the next movie). At the end, they all make a stand together on the salt planet against Kylo.... boom, plot done and better.

AND we end up with THREE heroes just like the OT. Purple haired woman replaces Ackbar as the quirky Admiral for the third movie (give her a bigger role if you want more female involvement).

It shouldn't have been hard to have a good enough story, keep with the traditions of Star Wars, and keep Rey as a strong female lead. This is also a big fail - so many little and order girls were proud of Rey after TFA. Now? They don't care anymore ... it's done, they've moved on. Disney - swing and a miss! How many young boys idolized Luke Skywalker into adult-hood creating further generations of fans? I guarantee they won't care about Rey in two years or whenever the next film comes out.

[Mathew]

What could have been a wonderful sequence that is ruined by poor editing / decision making:  Imagine the scene where Luke is lurking around the Falcon.  R2 chirps up and they have their moment (one of the best moments in the movie).  R2 plays Leia's message.  The camera slowly zooms in on Luke's face and then cut.  Now the audience is hanging onto the possibility of Luke turning his attitude around and helping the rebellion.  Regardless, they made Luke into an unlikable character because he not only gave up on being a Jedi but also his friends and family.  And as Mark Hamill said originally before the Disney handlers got to him:  That's not Luke.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Mathew

[binary_storm]

Forget whether or not it's a good Star Wars film: I'd argue it's not even a good movie on its own merits.

Its primary plot is an extremely slow-moving vehicle chase; its characters generally act like assholes and make extremely bizarre choices; its action scenes are largely tedious; its score is forgettable.

In my opinion it's coasting on the goodwill generated by its far superior predecessors, and many of its faults are being given a free pass just because of the Star Wars name.

Honestly, if this was just a generic sci-fi/fantasy movie that didn't have the words "Star Wars" in its title then it would be getting crucified, and rightly so.

Edited April 7, 2018 by binary_storm

[stackables]

The worst part is what happened to the original cast can't be fixed.  This is how they officially went out. Han's redemption arc from the originally trilogy was for nothing since he went back to his old ways. Luke who fought to bring the most evil man in the universe back to the light, planned to kill his nephew in his sleep and died from using the force.  There will never be another movie that fixes this.  This is how a billion dollar franchise with writers and directors making millions of dollars decided how to end the legacy of these characters. Someone who follows and loves Star Wars could have very easily came up with a plot that didn't crap on the original trilogy while progressing the new narrative.  

 

We will never get to see the original cast together in one scene, Luke doesn't go full heroic jedi and we will never get proper send offs for the main characters. Disney did all this while not making me care one bit about any of the new characters.  

[Ed Mack]

44 minutes ago, stackables said:

The worst part is what happened to the original cast can't be fixed.  This is how they officially went out. Han's redemption arc from the originally trilogy was for nothing since he went back to his old ways. Luke who fought to bring the most evil man in the universe back to the light, planned to kill his nephew in his sleep and died from using the force.  There will never be another movie that fixes this.  This is how a billion dollar franchise with writers and directors making millions of dollars decided how to end the legacy of these characters. Someone who follows and loves Star Wars could have very easily came up with a plot that didn't crap on the original trilogy while progressing the new narrative.  

 

We will never get to see the original cast together in one scene, Luke doesn't go full heroic jedi and we will never get proper send offs for the main characters. Disney did all this while not making me care one bit about any of the new characters.  

Such is life...Nobody is perfect...Everyone has flaws and this movie showed this pretty clearly.  

[jaisonline]

1 hour ago, stackables said:

We will never get to see the original cast together in one scene, Luke doesn't go full heroic jedi and we will never get proper send offs for the main characters. Disney did all this while not making me care one bit about any of the new characters.  

We still have the ending in ROTJ...

[stackables]

11 minutes ago, jaisonline said:

We still have the ending in ROTJ...

True...puts the blu-ray in....smiles

[RKI_Fismo]

58 minutes ago, Ed Mack said:

Such is life...Nobody is perfect...Everyone has flaws and this movie showed this pretty clearly.  

Apart from Rey, of course! Flawless as ever  ?

[Ed Mack]

1 hour ago, RKI_Fismo said:

Apart from Rey, of course! Flawless as ever  

Yes, she is the last great hope....

[RKI_Fismo]

9 minutes ago, Ed Mack said:

Yes, she is the last great hope....

Perfect. Introducing Star wars episode 9  -  Star Wars - The Last Hope?   ?   ?  ?