A Most Excellent Amazon Return Experience - Was I Scammed by a Seller???

[diablo2112]

Ok, I need to vent.  I've got friends here, and this is a good a place as any.  Settle in, I have story to tell.

My sister's wedding is this weekend.  I decided to buy a nice watch for my future brother-in-law.  Found it on Amazon, and ordered it back in August.  Received the watch.  Watch is left new, unused, in original packaging.  Wasn't cheap, $1600.  A few weeks go by, I talk with my future brother-in-law, and decide another, different gift would be more appropriate.  He's not really a watch guy, and this isn't a cheap watch.

I contact Amazon, requesting a return around the first of the month.  Amazon informs me sale was from a third party, they have to authorize return.  The seller says, "I'm outside the return period" and won't accept my return.  Hmmm.  I re-read his return policy, its says 30 days from receipt, and I'm well within this period.  I contact Amazon, and open an "A to Z Guarantee" claim.  Amazon sends me a note 2 days later, stating I am within the return period.  A day later, the seller sends me the following note:

Mr. (redacted), 

 

Please return the package to the following address:

 

2xxx (redacted address)

XXXX, Texas XXXXX

 

Once we receive the package you will have your refund. 

 

Sincerely,

 

(redacted) 

I package the item, take pictures of the watch, packaging, and labelled box.  I ship the item back to the seller via UPS, and provide tracking information via Amazon.

I track the package, and it shows as delivered on early Monday, Sept. 14.  "Left at Front Porch" is the note on UPS tracking.  Hmmmm.

Tonight, Tuesday, I get a call from UPS.  UPS says the seller has opened a case, the package wasn't on his porch.  An hour or 2 later, the seller leaves me this note on Amazon:

Hello Mr. (redacted),

 

The UPS tracking number says the item was delivered however no package has been received. Everyone on my street received their packages yet I have not received mine. UPS has contacted Mr. (redacted) and they will be conducting a formal investigation within 8 business days. I will be filing a police report as well. 

 

Mr. (redacted) was any insurance purchased on the watch as it is $1574.49?

Every scam-alert in my being is now going off.  So, I leave this note back to him:

I followed your instructions exactly and shipped to the address you provided.   I'm surprised to learn this is apparently a home address.  Your are not a business with employees to receive items?  

 

You did not ask to either insure the package or require a signature delivery.  I had no way on knowing the circumstances of your receipt.  Clearly, if this was to be delivered to a home address, you should have either provided the shipping label as every other Amazon return has done for me, or instructed me with specifics including the amount of insurance and whether a signature delivery should be required.  

 

I've fulfilled every request made, promptly.  I shipped the new item back to you, with full tracking and photographs of the package.  It was your responsibility to arrange receipt.  This return has become something of a nightmare.  

 

Please refund my full purchase price immediately, and you can take up with UPS the status of the package that was delivered to your door.   Simply, that's not my problem.  

And that's where I am now.  No, I didn't send the package signature required, it didn't even cross my mind (note use of the term "we" in his instructions, doesn't sound like some guy selling out of his house).  I really did think this was going to a business, with someone to receive.  

Anyway, that's where things stand now.  Let's see what Amazon does about this.  Yeah, I may be screwed here.  It's a tough lesson.  Yes, you can get scammed by sellers on Amazon.   This was the first return I've done on Amazon in which a label wasn't provided by Amazon, now I know.  Anyway, wanted to vent about this, and perhaps warn others so you don't make a similar mistake.

Edited September 16, 2015 by diablo2112

[asharerin]

Damn sorry to hear this has happened to you. Hopefully Amazon will take care of you since you followed all of the return instructions the seller provided. I would get on chat with Amazon and get an answer right away. Keep us updated and best of luck.

[10230]

Really sad, but keep in mind that the seller might not be a scammer at all. Maybe the package is indeed missing. It would then be still an open question what to do, but maybe be careful with the scammer label. We had stories of stuff being stolen even from front porches. It happens.

[diablo2112]

First, thanks for the therapy.  Ignore all this, unless you're really bored...

------------

I'm sorry, but I didn't just fall off the Chicken Truck.  No way that 1) seller denies returns and does everything to impede this, then 2) package is "lost".   Also very suspicious.  The package was delivered on Monday in the morning, and he didn't notify anyone that it was missing until Tuesday night.  36 hours.  And, I just received an email that Amazon sent the buyer:

Hello from Amazon.com.  The buyer of order (redacted) states that they have returned the order to you for a reimbursement. The buyer provided us with UPS 1Zxxxxxxxxxxx, which shows this return was delivered on 09/14/2015.

Please inspect this item and let us know what the return status is as soon as possible so that we may resolve this claim. Please note that failure to respond to this email within three business days may result in a debit to your Amazon.com account.

Thank you for your assistance in this matter and for selling with Amazon.com.

---

XXXX

Account Specialist

A-to-z Guarantee Program

 

Yeah.  He knew the watch was coming Monday, I notified him of that prior to delivery.  I wrote him Monday night, asking status.  It's not until Tuesday night that he informs us the package is missing?  Uh huh....   

Here's something to know.  If you EVER file a package lost claim with UPS, they will forever blacklist your address and refuse non-signature-required deliveries to that address, for ever more (this is even stated in writing on the UPS web site; I just re-read it).  

Hence, this is the first package ever lost to this guy?  He has a large Amazon store, selling hundreds of watches, and he must have hundreds of deliveries.  No way, no how this package is the first one to be "lost".  Sorry, but I'm calling this one.  The seller lost the benefit of the doubt with his prior behaviour and his 36 hour delay in notifying anyone of a lost, $1600 package, plain and simple.

Edited September 16, 2015 by diablo2112

[lodibricks]

I do believe in the case where we're the seller and ship an item that is tracked as "delivered," it's not our fault if there's theft from their porch. Now I don't know how that applies in this case as a buyer returning an item, but it sounds to me like it's theft from the seller's property and shouldn't be your fault. UPS would probably say the same, "we did our part."

In either case, I wish I married into your family. That's an amazing gift for a brother-in-law. I'd sooner get a Chima Fire Bike.

[redghostx]

I have nothing to add and I am disappointed that you had a bad experience and I wish you the bestbest of luck in resolving it. I really wanted to say that I read the topic title and expected at least one "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" reference.

[xeeeej]

Somewhere on a Fancy Watch forum somewhere, is a seller with a "buyer trying to scam me" story about an Amazon sale and UPS return that got "lost."

 

Hope it all works out for everyone.

[KShine]

Does Amazon have a return limit that would require a signature for returns?

[Pseudoty]

When you purchased the watch was it FBA if not where was it shipped from compared to where you returned it too. Perhaps the seller was using you to forward the watch to another buyer?  I have opened a package post claim with UPS and they sent out an inspector with a GPS photo of where the package was left, my neighbors house, they were on vacation and it was still sitting there on their front porch.  I still get UPS deliveries no signature required perhaps because it was their fault. 

I hope this works out for you. 

[diablo2112]

My claim was denied by Amazon overnight.  I'm out $1600.  

"Hello from Amazon.com. 

Thank you for your response to our inquiry regarding 106-xxxxxxxx.

The seller who fulfilled this order indicates no return has been received. Unfortunately, the shipment information provided for this return does not prove that the item(s) were delivered to the seller, as it does not include a signature confirmation of delivery. As a result, this is insufficient evidence of delivery to the intended recipient. Since we are unable to confirm that your return has been delivered to the seller, your claim has been denied.  

Note that many carriers, including the USPS, use a delivery confirmation that does not confirm delivery to the recipient's address, but instead only confirm delivery to the zip code.  

Please understand a traceable return with signature confirmation is the only way for us to verify that your merchandise has been received by the seller. Amazon.com strives to maintain a marketplace that is fair to both buyers and sellers. 

Please note that we always ask that you use a shipping service with signature required as well as insuring the item to ensure its safe delivery. If the seller's return address was a PO Box, we ask you to ship USPS and to request signature confirmation and insurance for USPS shipments. 

Thank you for your understanding.

---
xxxxxxx
Account Specialist
A-to-z Guarantee Program"

[Fcbarcelona101]

I just read this entire thread and, up to your last post, thought you were going to get your money back. Really sucks, sorry to hear.

 

I know you learned your lesson this time, but for everyone else out there, I always require signature confirmation/insurance if I have to return a high value item and the seller does not provide a return label. Sure, you will have to pay for both of those things, but you cover yourself against situations like this.

[KShine]

Always know the rules of the selling platform (whether you are the buyer, or seller) - If you need tracking, signature, insurance, or whatever - get it.

I know whenever I receive something with no tracking, or above a certain threshold without sig - I always think "doesn't this person realize that they are sending out an invitation to steal?" I can't cross that line, but there are plenty of people that can (and they have no problem doing it).

[pacific493]

Contact the credit card company for the card that you used to charge the watch and file a chargeback for the charge. Not sure if that will work under the circumstances, but I have always had good luck with chargeback when I've had to use them.

[jay4e]

How did you buy it? generally your credit card will protect you from things like this (including theft).  might be a bit of a process but I would call an talk to them.  I suspect as soon as Amazon hears from your Credit Card company wheels will start turning and things will resolve them selves.  Amazon even as big as they are are still deathly afraid of cc companies.

[diablo2112]

Good suggestions, thanks.  I will call my bank later today, I paid for this on a Visa Debit Card.

Obligatory B&TEA quote:  I find this situation bogus, heinous, and most non-triumphant.  

Edited September 16, 2015 by diablo2112

[TheGallows]

Always know the rules of the selling platform (whether you are the buyer, or seller) - If you need tracking, signature, insurance, or whatever - get it.

I know whenever I receive something with no tracking, or above a certain threshold without sig - I always think "doesn't this person realize that they are sending out an invitation to steal?" I can't cross that line, but there are plenty of people that can (and they have no problem doing it).

Yeah I had someone send me a £100 set with no sig or tracking. I thought really? Like you said plenty of people would not be so honest

[TheGallows]

Good suggestions, thanks.  I will call my bank later today, I paid for this on a Visa Debit Card.

Obligatory B&TEA quote:  I find this situation bogus, heinous, and most non-triumphant.  

Haha finally! Glad you can look on the bright side, its a tough break.

[gregpj]

Good suggestions, thanks.  I will call my bank later today, I paid for this on a Visa Debit Card.

Obligatory B&TEA quote:  I find this situation bogus, heinous, and most non-triumphant.  

Read the rules very carefully first... Charge backs are generally for items or services not received as advertised. You got the right watch, but decided to return it.

It's worth calling, but I'd be surprised if they gave your money back.

I also suggest trying to call the local office that delivered it and try to get something from the driver that it was delivered/returned. That could help with Visa.

[jerryherb]

this is why i REQUIRE insurance for all my returns as well as a signature for all sets over $250 as that is how i send them originally. not sure why you would send a $1600 watch back without both. its only a few extra $ for peace of mind. on the other hand who runs a reputable boutique watch store out of their house? sorry to hear it happened to you.

Edited September 16, 2015 by jerryherb

[diablo2112]

BTW, I did insure the package up to my limit: $500.  Anything more, and I have to have this shipped from a UPS office, I can't generate the local label.  Because of this $500 insurance, UPS is investigating the lost package claim.  It's not $1600, but it's something.  We'll see.  

[LegoEdison]

Debit Card charge back is harder than credit card as far as i know. With credit card purchase, they can credit your account first and wait for the investigation. if you use debit card, you are out $1600 and wait forever if you are lucky enough to get back the $$. 

[diablo2112]

Holy Sh*T!!!!

No one is going to believe this.

Guess what just showed up on eBay?  In the last few hours?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LATEST-SEIKO-ASTRON-SOLAR-GPS-BLACK-PVD-TACHYMETER-MENS-WATCH-SSE031J-/391262166307?hash=item5b190add23

THIS IS THE WATCH I RETURNED.  Its a rare model, very few come available, and ITS FROM THE SAME CITY I RETURNED IT TO.  What are the odds?  Here's a picture of the watch I returned, at the time of return:

You have got to be kidding?  Not really sure what to do now?

Edited September 16, 2015 by diablo2112

[Darth_Raichu]

I did a little reading on Amazon return policy and quoted it here for everyone's benefit.

 If a seller does not provide a return address in the United States or free return shipping to an international address, you may file an A-to-z Guarantee claim to seek help with your return. If the order is valued at $100 or more, insure the shipment for the value of the merchandise and ship your return with a signature shipping service. Items valued at over $75 must be returned to the seller with a trackable shipping service. For items below $75, we suggest USPS delivery confirmation service. If a package doesn't arrive and you don't use a trackable method to return or if you refuse the shipment as a method of return, we may not be able to cover you under the A-to-Z Guarantee.

Here is a direct link for anyone who wants to read the whole thing:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=15015721 

[mfortunek]

BTW, I did insure the package up to my limit: $500.  Anything more, and I have to have this shipped from a UPS office, I can't generate the local label.  Because of this $500 insurance, UPS is investigating the lost package claim.  It's not $1600, but it's something.  We'll see.  

I hate to be that guy, but if you honestly believe you were defrauded (which you clearly do and it sure sounds like you might be right) then you should consider filing a legal claim, or at a minimum contacting your local Attorney General's office.  Many states actually have programs in place to investigate this kind of thing and you might be surprised at how much traction you get if you call the AG in the state where this seller is located. Also, you very possibly might be able to claim the loss on your income tax returns as the victim of a theft/fraud and, although it's small consolation, avoid paying income taxes on the amount you were defrauded. Just a couple of ideas to try and help.  I'm very sorry this happened.

[legonoose]

If you were to bid on this Ebay item you could then use the Ebay feature to request the seller's contact information.  This may help identify who is selling this watch.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/contact-member.html#requesting

Request a member's contact information

If you're involved in a current or recent transaction, and can't reach the other member through email, you can request the other member's contact information. Here's how:

1. Click the Advanced link at the top of the eBay home page.

2. In the Members section on the left side of the page, click Find contact information.

3. Enter the username of the member and the transaction's item number.

We'll send the contact information, including the member's name, city, and telephone number, to your registered email address. The member will also receive your contact information. You'll both need to respect our User Privacy Notice when using this information.

Read our false or missing contact information policy for more information.