tabolton314 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Community colleges and state universities (in one's own state) are still fairly inexpensive. The UC system has had to raise tuition substantially to cover rising pension obligations (within the UC system and CA government more broadly), but that is not the fault of rich people or greedy corporations. In any case, I don't think education is the issue. Not having kids you can't support should be the easiest decision in the world. I mean, what exactly is the upside?But if i can't feed myself, or put a roof over my families head, how am i going to be able to afford any sort of college? Provide good education through high school, then free education after high school. Make the amount spent on each kid the same across the nation. Don't tie funding to property taxes, as the poor areas will have poor schools due to lack of funding, if nothing else. The cycle of poverty is real.There is no upside to having kids you can't support. But a lot of people do not have the choice to not have kids. Education, lack of resources (condoms aren't free, unless you go to planned parenthood), lack of options once you get pregnant. Not all pregnancies are a choice. Accidents make people. I provided several links above on why sex ed is very important. But so is having access to sex health services.In Texas, for example, someone might have to go 600 miles to find a facility that will provide an abortion, then there's a mandatory 48 hour waiting period, so that's two trips. There's no guarantee that your job has sick days, or vacation, or you won't get fired for taking that time. And how are you going to get there? What if you don't own a car? You now have the choice of losing your job and hoping you find another one, or keeping the kid. That's the reality for a lot of women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryherb Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) But if i can't feed myself, or put a roof over my families head, how am i going to be able to afford any sort of college? Provide good education through high school, then free education after high school. Make the amount spent on each kid the same across the nation. Don't tie funding to property taxes, as the poor areas will have poor schools due to lack of funding, if nothing else. The cycle of poverty is real.There is no upside to having kids you can't support. But a lot of people do not have the choice to not have kids. Education, lack of resources (condoms aren't free, unless you go to planned parenthood), lack of options once you get pregnant. Not all pregnancies are a choice. Accidents make people. I provided several links above on why sex ed is very important. But so is having access to sex health services.In Texas, for example, someone might have to go 600 miles to find a facility that will provide an abortion, then there's a mandatory 48 hour waiting period, so that's two trips. There's no guarantee that your job has sick days, or vacation, or you won't get fired for taking that time. And how are you going to get there? What if you don't own a car? You now have the choice of losing your job and hoping you find another one, or keeping the kid. That's the reality for a lot of women.i can agree with you on a little more than half of it. abstinence is also a choice. however, this country borderlines on barbaric when it comes to some aspects of labor laws compared to many other "civilized" nations Edited May 21, 2015 by jerryherb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabolton314 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Things simply cost more now than they did then. Average rent would be $365/month. A new house: $52k. Harvard Tuition: $7k ETA: sorry the picture's huge. I can't figure out how to shrink it. Fixed it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryherb Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Fixed it that milk was mighty expensive. how much was diet soda? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@rtisan Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Wow, what a controversial subject this is indeed. I`m surprised the conversation has appeared to remain pretty civil haha. Not that BP`ers aren`t already, but ya`ll know what I mean..... The above is good, but there are more than a few issues with it. First off, it would have been nice to define what "Bottom" and "Top" are intended to refer to. What defines "Rich" and "Poor" ? What income brackets are represented by each 1/5th of the distribution scale? Taking a quick look on google, and I`m sure many of us have already seen this topic represented graphically in many ways, you can see there are dozens of ways to represent this. As a very light/brief overview, the video is solid IMHO, but he doesn`t define what he`s talking about in terms of the specific income brackets. EDIT: I think all of us can agree there is a huge issue in terms of distribution, and has been for a very long time. The questions of course remain why this is the case, and how can we respond to it. What can we do as individuals/groups/society/etc. to make change, whatever change looks like. Edited May 21, 2015 by @rtisan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostDad Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 But if i can't feed myself, or put a roof over my families head, how am i going to be able to afford any sort of college? Provide good education through high school, then free education after high school. Make the amount spent on each kid the same across the nation. Don't tie funding to property taxes, as the poor areas will have poor schools due to lack of funding, if nothing else. The cycle of poverty is real.There is no upside to having kids you can't support. But a lot of people do not have the choice to not have kids. Education, lack of resources (condoms aren't free, unless you go to planned parenthood), lack of options once you get pregnant. Not all pregnancies are a choice. Accidents make people. I provided several links above on why sex ed is very important. But so is having access to sex health services.In Texas, for example, someone might have to go 600 miles to find a facility that will provide an abortion, then there's a mandatory 48 hour waiting period, so that's two trips. There's no guarantee that your job has sick days, or vacation, or you won't get fired for taking that time. And how are you going to get there? What if you don't own a car? You now have the choice of losing your job and hoping you find another one, or keeping the kid. That's the reality for a lot of women.As you say, condoms are free at Planned Parenthood. And lots of other places. This minimum wage story is set in LA, which is in CA, so the laws of TX should not be an issue. I think the kids, who are innocent victims of their parents' bad choices, deserve help. But there's no guarantee that giving money to the parents will help their kids. These are parents with a track record of bad decisions. I would much rather help the kids through charter schools and school voucher programs to get them out of their lousy neighborhood public schools. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy_bricks Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) My wife works with some lower income families and teen moms.I asked her about the teens' thought process. Did they not know what caused babies? Could they not get birth control? But her answer was that they just didn't think it would happen to them. Education only goes so far. Having the knowledge, doesn't guarantee you'll make good choices, just like having more money in your pocket doesn't guarantee you'll make good choices with it.The lower income families she deals with don't know any better, but they don't want to either. They don't have enough initiative to want to improve their life. If you gave these people more money, they wouldn't buy Lego for their kids at any price. They'd be at Walmart, on Black Friday, loading up on more DVDs, like I've seen them do.Had a family member get a good paying job in the oil field. His wife said it was like winning the lottery, and they treated it like that too. Bought new vehicles and bunches of other junk rather than paying off their debt. With the fall of oil prices, they were in a world hurt when he lost his job, but it was the fault of their poor choices.The point I'm tying to make is that just because someone has more money, doesn't mean they'll make good choices with it. I believe there people are out there that would benefit and be able to use an increase in minimum wage to improve their life, and maybe buy their kid a Lego set from time to time, but I also believe these people are the exception rather than the rule. Edited May 21, 2015 by fuzzy_bricks formatting 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostDad Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Fixed it You know what's really gone nuts since this was published? The ratio of home prices to average income (let alone median income). Even if we're talking household (versus individual) income, that means new (!) houses would be around $110,000. Good luck with that. On the bright side, you gotta love the cheap milk (relative to income) that we have now. The trick is to build your new house out of milk cartons... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickleboy Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Still curious if anyone who has these strong position has any experience first hand with economic dev. Seems like everyone wants to cite studies from publication which have "skin" in the game. I'd love to hear from people who actually have experience in this stuff...I have over a decade of experience so I am curious what others who actually have clue, think...From my experience and from what I read here most of you should stop talking. This in one thread I wish was locked. Edited May 21, 2015 by pickleboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 My wife works with some lower income families and teen moms.I asked her about the teens' thought process. Did they not know what caused babies? Could they not get birth control? But her answer was that they just didn't think it would happen to them. Education only goes so far. Having the knowledge, doesn't guarantee you'll make good choices, just like having more money in your pocket doesn't guarantee you'll make good choices with it.The lower income families she deals with don't know any better, but they don't want to either. They don't have enough initiative to want to improve their life. If you gave these people more money, they wouldn't buy Lego for their kids at any price. They'd be at Walmart, on Black Friday, loading up on more DVDs, like I've seen them do.Had a family member get a good paying job in the oil field. His wife said it was like winning the lottery, and they treated it like that too. Bought new vehicles and bunches of other junk rather than paying off their debt. With the fall of oil prices, they were in a world hurt when he lost his job, but it was the fault of their poor choices.The point I'm tying to make is that just because someone has more money, doesn't mean they'll make good choices with it. I believe there people are out there that would benefit and be able to use an increase in minimum wage to improve their life, and maybe buy their kid a Lego set from time to time, but I also believe these people are the exception rather than the rule. blaming bad decision makers for making bad decisions. Cute and maybe necessary on a case by case scenario. However, if you want to fix this you need to reduce the quantity of bad decision makes. I don't know how to do this but, education and reduced time with the cultural environment that creates bad decision makers seems like a good start. More free school and more time per day at free school seems like it could work. Also, make being a teacher one of our societies greatest achievements. Covet them as pillars of society and pay them as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickleboy Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 These all seem like comments who read too much fox OR msnbc...Run a few businesses and then let's talk... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickleboy Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Let's also not forget that the poverty rate for married couples is single digits... Regardless of how many kids you have...regardless of color... for more than 2 decades...I apologize if this is too much for our admins but all opinions are not equal... Edited May 21, 2015 by pickleboy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LotsoTrainz Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Fixed it I feel as though anything pre-WWII is a bit inaccurate to get a good economic picture. Especially considering the poor economic climate of the 1930s. 1950s or 60s would be a better judge. Anyway, the raising of the minimum wage is like a bumper sticker, simple and easy to understand, but doesn't provide much a big picture solution. We're living in a post-90s economy where the rules of the game have changed, but people want to relive the glory days of the past rather than plan out for the future. Proliferation of digital goods has been an example of this, affecting some industries more than others. There needs to be new ideas rather than just the same old things. Three big problems that a minimum wage does not address, 1. it assumes that those on the lower-end of the economic scale will not be adversely affected, including those on fixed incomes like the elderly or disabled, 2. That the employment situation for most remains strong, something that could easily be debated in today's world, especially in areas of chronic poverty like inner cities or Appalachia where jobs are hard to come by, and 3. Cost of living for each household can have a lot of variables that are not reflected in a wage, especially housing which is the biggest economic factor for most of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Still curious if anyone who has these strong position has any experience first hand with economic dev. Seems like everyone wants to cite studies from publication which have "skin" in the game. I'd love to hear from people who actually have experience in this stuff...I have over a decade of experience so I am curious what others who actually have clue, think...From my experience and from what I read here most of you should stop talking. This in one thread I wish was locked. These all seem like comments who read too much fox OR msnbc...Run a few businesses and then let's talk... "stop talking", "then let's talk".... you're an egotistical .... stop trying to stop people from thinking. It will never work. If we aren't listing to you, that knows it all, but won't enlighten us, we'll listen to others. Duh. hording your info because others don't deserve your court is pompous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Let's also not forget that the poverty rate for married couples is single digits... Regardless of how many kids you have...regardless of color... for more than 2 decades...I apologize if this is too much for our admins but all opinions are not equal...yeah, not equal. but your opinions are diminutive and rude. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickleboy Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Yes, my experience in the industry of creating new jobs and training have made me egotistical when I hear people talk about job creation and what "the problem is". What experience do you have in creating jobs for others? What experience do you have in economic dev? I have sacrificed my income to fight for what I believe in...which is better income for all with proper education... What have you done to help others?Bring a few people out of poverty and then let's chat...You are right...I am egotistical when I talk about bringing people out of poverty ...I have done it...have you? Edited May 21, 2015 by pickleboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickleboy Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) yeah, not equal. but your opinions are diminutive and rude.I'm still curious ...what experience do you have in economic development? Or did you read a bunch of articles and deem yourself an expert? Edited May 21, 2015 by pickleboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yes, my experience is the industry of creating new jobs and training have made me egotistical when I hear people talk about job creation and what "the problem is". What experience do you have in creating jobs for others? What experience do you have in economic dev? I have sacrificed my income to fight for what I believe in...which is better income for all with proper education... What have you done to help others?Bring a few people out of poverty and then let's chat...You ate right...I am egotistical when I talk about bringing people out of poverty ...I have done it...have you?How about this...NO...I could care less about who you are and what you've done! Your arguments need to be able to stand on there own to truly persuade! Who you are and who the receiver is does not change the truthfulness of the argument. If Albert Einstein explained relativity to a mouse or a mouse explained relativity to Albert Einstein doesn't change the theory of relativity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickleboy Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) How about this...NO...I could care less about who you are and what you've done! Your arguments need to be able to stand on there own to truly persuade! Who you are and who the receiver is does not change the truthfulness of the argument. If Albert Einstein explained relativity to a mouse or a mouse explained relativity to Albert Einstein doesn't change the theory of relativity. Thats certainly one way to dismiss people who have real world experience.... You are correct that you can dismiss someone who works in the industry without a study to back up their statements...however...dismissing and being correct are two different things... do you even know what you are arguing now? Edited May 21, 2015 by pickleboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I'm still curious ...what experience do you have in economic development? Or did you read a bunch of articles and deem yourself an expert?I'm still curious when will you stop committing one of the main known argument fallacies. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick625 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 ppl who are getiing 20$ an hour will still be getting 20$ an hour after the minimum wage increases to 15$. And the prices on rent will increase but we will still be making same salaries. I think that most small businesses in Los Angeles area will hire illegal immigrants and will pay them under the table 11$ or less an hour instead of 15$. This will definitely affect me, and im totally against it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickleboy Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) I'm still curious when will you stop committing one of the main known argument fallacies. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominemThis is what I do for a living. When you have the same experience I have, we can call it ad hominem...What exactly do you disagree with me about anyways? I asked if people had the same experience I do and then your tampon blew up ....What do you do for a living so I can tell you how bad you suck at it?While you are at it...Since I am ignorant...please tell us how we can bring our brethren out of poverty. I'd love to know so I can pass it on to those I work with... Edited May 21, 2015 by pickleboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick625 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Minimum wage hikes will hurt middle class, because they suffer the increase in costs incurred by minimum wage hikes, but don't benefit at all from it because they're already above the minimum wage. Minimum wage increases try to tackle a real problem, but do nothing to actually solve it. Minimum wage should be adjusted in accordance with inflation and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 This is what I do for a living. When you have the same experience I have, we can call it ad hominem...What exactly do you disagree with me about anyways? I asked if people had the same experience I do and then your tampon blew up ....What do you do for a living so I can tell you how bad you suck at it?I don't think you're going to understand. you still care who I am! and use a sexist comment to harm me. YOU ARE (currently) A BAD PERSON. learn to debate with anyone about anything and you will learn and teach others. If you stop evaluating others worth and strengthen the true nature of your arrangement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickleboy Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) I don't think you're going to understand. you still care who I am! and use a sexist comment to harm me. YOU ARE (currently) A BAD PERSON. learn to debate with anyone about anything and you will learn and teach others. If you stop evaluating others worth and strengthen the true nature of your arrangement.You're an idiot. I apologize for engaging in this conversation. It's my fault... Edited May 21, 2015 by pickleboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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