Detect Fake Sets / Resealing?

[Brickson]

Hey guys, I've seen this topic come up here and there. I'm thinking about investing in a Taj Mahal just for the CAGR (ROI beats my TFSA). However, it seems like an easy target for re-sealing. How would one be able to verify they're actually receiving a legit brand new sealed set? Been thinking,

1) Are the stickers always straight (parallel to the edge of the box)? Or in some cases the box is so heavy they go at an angle? Or get stretched?

2) Would applying a bit of pressure to it to check it's secure be a good test?

3) Moving it around, or pushing on it to check the sound? Thought about bringing a Tower Bridge to compare?

4) Some sort of light check?

X-ray would be nice..

Cheers for any info!

[asharerin]

The seals alot of the time are not put on straight at the factory so it is not going to be of any help. With a set of that size and weight you could very well see some loosening of seals over time. I would look at seller feedback as the best indicator. Once you get the set if you are not going to open it then you can weight it and compare to the data on bricklink. Allow for small variances due to humidity and the moisture content of the cardboard. Buy from a reputable seller and you shouldn't have any problems. With the new Ferris Wheel then 10196 may be the better investment tho (part out value of 10196 is ~ $5.5k vs $2k for Taj).

Edited May 14, 2015 by asharerin

[jaisonline]

The seals alot of the time are not put on straight at the factory so it is not going to be of any help. With a set of that size and weight you could very well see some loosening of seals over time. I would look at seller feedback as the best indicator. Once you get the set if you are not going to open it then you can weight it and compare to the data on bricklink. Allow for small variances due to humidity and the moisture content of the cardboard. Buy from a reputable seller and you shouldn't have any problems. With the new Ferris Wheel then 10196 may be the better investment tho (part out value of 10196 is ~ $5.5k vs $2k for Taj).

100% agree.  Check seller feedback, asking price (too low is often too good to be true), inspect all seals for glue, re-taping, etc... Note  I have some heavy sets purchased in 2013 that have 1-2 seals each which loosened some even though they were stored properly,  sometimes it just happens.  i do like how Lego is now using 6 seals on some larger boxed sets.

For expensive sets like this, i personally recommend buying opened box (sealed bags or used) so you can at least check for completeness and even build. This goes for sets especially like 10196 with scarce contents. 

 

[Thumper]

The seals are essentially meaningless, anyone with a hairdryer can reseal or remove them or transfer substitutes from any other set.  You are mostly just limited to how much you trust the source.    Even in retail places it's not unheard of to find sets that look perfect but have had the minifigs pulled out, resealed & set returned for refund.

[jaisonline]

 true.  at least returns are usually an easy task with retailers.

The seals are essentially meaningless, anyone with a hairdryer can reseal or remove them or transfer substitutes from any other set.  You are mostly just limited to how much you trust the source.    Even in retail places it's not unheard of to find sets that look perfect but have had the minifigs pulled out, resealed & set returned for refund.

​

[bricketycricket]

The seals dont even have to be broken either, I've heard the latest trick these people use is to carefully open the bottom flap of the box and glue it back shut after.

[jerryherb]

The seals dont even have to be broken either, I've heard the latest trick these people use is to carefully open the bottom flap of the box and glue it back shut after.

​ive seen this on a milano at walmart. you can tell because there was glue residue and the cardboard was uneven thickness where it was unsealed/pressed back together by some scum fingers. there were even partial prints.

Edited May 14, 2015 by jerryherb

[jerryherb]

The seals are essentially meaningless, anyone with a hairdryer can reseal or remove them or transfer substitutes from any other set.  You are mostly just limited to how much you trust the source.    Even in retail places it's not unheard of to find sets that look perfect but have had the minifigs pulled out, resealed & set returned for refund.

​

​weigh your sets. each fig missing is already significant in terms of weight and no one usually takes just one. if you have multiples of a set and you suspect fraud, 1 oz of difference between the suspect and the rest should be an indicator the set is a dud and all figs are gone. they should all be within 10 grams of each other.

Edited May 14, 2015 by jerryherb

[Brickson]

Really thanks for the replies guys. I'm super disappointed to hear it's basically impossible to tell in some cases (I guess not all). As for weighing, so if for some reason I was buying somebody I couldn't get reviews on etc, basically craigslist, then is it a valid test to weight it using a luggage scale? I guess they could go through the tedious effort of matching the weight, if they're going to even go through faking such a large set they might as well do it right.

[jaisonline]

weighing sets is an option.  i don't do it.  maybe i'm just avoiding the time involved and the cost of the "correct" scale (perfect blend of size and accuracy).

that's another reason most of my higher end sets were purchased either at retail by me or used.

 

update: i'm not against weighing sets. just stating why i don't.

[jerryherb]

Really thanks for the replies guys. I'm super disappointed to hear it's basically impossible to tell in some cases (I guess not all). As for weighing, so if for some reason I was buying somebody I couldn't get reviews on etc, basically craigslist, then is it a valid test to weight it using a luggage scale? I guess they could go through the tedious effort of matching the weight, if they're going to even go through faking such a large set they might as well do it right.

​you need a really accurate scale to do this. craigslist/no way to return, probably does not qualify for this option unless you weight it on the spot. if craigslist you can try to meet a local post office that has a scale available to the public. If someone is particularly crafty they can make the set weigh what its supposed to. i have not seen a perfect set that has been tampered with yet. every one of them has signs of tampering... BTW weight of TM is 6402g according to bricklink and 14.11lbs according to BP. this may vary slightly by humidity

[lego rules]

The seals are essentially meaningless, anyone with a hairdryer can reseal or remove them or transfer substitutes from any other set.  You are mostly just limited to how much you trust the source.    Even in retail places it's not unheard of to find sets that look perfect but have had the minifigs pulled out, resealed & set returned for refund.

​I thought I remember reading somewhere that the seals are a bit foggy when re-attched if they have been removed using heat.

[jerryherb]

​I thought I remember reading somewhere that the seals are a bit foggy when re-attched if they have been removed using heat.

​true, usually they are very clear and transparent when new, somewhat cloudy when re-attached. you may be able to spot lack of uniformity in glue, foreign debris, or misalignment of small torn off paper under the seal if scum was a newb or in a hurry. i have even seen fingerpirints

Edited May 14, 2015 by jerryherb

[Migration]

​true, usually they are very clear and transparent when new, somewhat cloudy when re-attached. you may be able to spot lack of uniformity in glue, foreign debris, or misalignment of small torn off paper under the seal if scum was a newb or in a hurry. i have even seen fingerpirints

I have also seen a flawlessly sealed box full of puzzle pieces.

[jerryherb]

I have also seen a flawlessly sealed box full of puzzle pieces.

​did you shake it for that abs/celulose sound? obviously puzzles dont sound like legos

[gbg108]

I have also seen a flawlessly sealed box full of puzzle pieces.

Hopefully it was at least a custom puzzle of a picture of the set... 

[jay4e]

​you need a really accurate scale to do this. craigslist/no way to return, probably does not qualify for this option unless you weight it on the spot. if craigslist you can try to meet a local post office that has a scale available to the public. If someone is particularly crafty they can make the set weigh what its supposed to. i have not seen a perfect set that has been tampered with yet. every one of them has signs of tampering... BTW weight of TM is 6402g according to bricklink and 14.11lbs according to BP. this may vary slightly by humidity

​Just meet the guy at an airport and get chummy with the TSA agent.  

[jerryherb]

airport scales are only accurate to .1 lb and you dont actually have to deal with TSA to weigh stuff for free. just go to any vacant luggage check-in desk/scale. the scales are always on.

props on the idea, scales not accurate enough though

Edited May 14, 2015 by jerryherb

[bricketycricket]

I think he was referring to using the x-ray machine

[GhostDad]

You can get a surprising amount of variance in weight, even on sets purchased direct from a distributor.  I've seen minifigure cases differ by up to an ounce, straight out of the factory 'brown' cartons.  Never had a complaint that a figure was missing from one.  I do not deal in very old/valuable sets like the Taj, 10179, etc.  Maybe these attract a higher grade of scumbag,  The only opened and resealed sets I have ever received were from Toys R Us.  All seals on one side of four different sets were removed, then reattached with Scotch tape.  Not exactly a professional con job.  They're all the correct weight, but I haven't opened them to check the contents.  There's no point, since Toys R Us does not actually credit my credit card when I return items.  I think they're basically honest, but hugely incompetent, which ultimately makes dealing with the company about as bad as buying from anonymous weirdos on Craigslist.

[mscheaf]

I have emailed Lego a few times suggesting they improve their seals. I have told them about the sets I have had to return to Walmart because they were full of Lincoln logs or books when I opened them. I have told them about missing minifigs. I have had them replace missing minifigs. If enough people email them or call them about it enough times perhaps they might start to listen?

[jay4e]

It's interesting how the small boxes get a tamper proof seal but larger boxes get a sticker.

[comicblast]

It's interesting how the small boxes get a tamper proof seal but larger boxes get a sticker.

​Larger set boxes are more durable, so it would be inconvenient to have to press through a thick piece of cardboard to open a set, IMO. Small boxes can also still be opened by melting the glue that keeps the box faces together. Unless LEGO starts to shrink wrap their sets, I don't see how they can improve their situation. Even then, people can probably reseal shrink wrap or buy a shrink wrap machine.

Edited May 14, 2015 by comicblast

[Migration]

I have also seen a flawlessly sealed box full of puzzle pieces.

It was when I worked at Target, I found it on the shelf and opened it. Used it as a training exercise, that scams been around longer than most people think. 20 years ago people would reseal stereos filled with assorted junk and return them.

[GhostDad]

Whenever I return something to Target, they open up the box and verify the contents before crediting my account.  One of their CS people did tell me that folks return empty detergent bottles filled with water though.  Why Target accepts returns on something like that in the first place is beyond me, but I would love to see the scammers' return records follow them around like bad debts or felony convictions.  Without some serious penalties (more serious than just saying, 'you can't return stuff at Target anymore'), this is never going to stop.