Bricklink/BrickOwl - Discussion, questions, & answers

[TANV]

So, I got a message from a French Buyer this morning:

Hello, package arrived in France but now to get it, my postal service required me 56€ as there was a value on the package, how it possible ? I never had that before when buying items in USA or elsewhere, that wasn't a preview fee.

I'm pretty sure they're upset about what I assume are VAT and customs fees? What's the best way for me to respond to them? I mean it's spelled out in my T&C that they're responsible for customs fees. I'm just trying to avoid any Paypal recriminations and negative feedback here.

[brickvoyeur]

2 minutes ago, TANV said:

So, I got a message from a French Buyer this morning:

Hello, package arrived in France but now to get it, my postal service required me 56€ as there was a value on the package, how it possible ? I never had that before when buying items in USA or elsewhere, that wasn't a preview fee.

I'm pretty sure they're upset about what I assume are VAT and customs fees? What's the best way for me to respond to them? I mean it's spelled out in my T&C that they're responsible for customs fees. I'm just trying to avoid any Paypal recriminations and negative feedback here.

Ask them to confirm the condition of the package, and that the item arrived in good shape. Get that in writing before you explain to them that you aren't responsible for import fees. 

[TANV]

7 minutes ago, brickvoyeur said:

Ask them to confirm the condition of the package, and that the item arrived in good shape. Get that in writing before you explain to them that you aren't responsible for import fees. 

Sounds like they haven't actually paid for the package yet and it's being held by the local Post Office. This sound good?

Thank you for reaching out to me. I wanted to check with you with regards to the package. First, your post office is still holding the package, correct? Second, what is the condition of the package and the items within it?

Thanks again!

 

[Phil B]

My suggestion is contrary to what @brickvoyeur says: I would tell them that these are likely import fees, and that as per your T&Cs the recipient is responsible for these fees. Tell them what you declared on the package (I assume the invoice total) and leave it at that. 

You might want to give them the option to refuse, and tell them you will refund them their money minus shipping costs and any administrative fees you get levied with once the package returns.

[TomOOO]

I agree with the last comment.

I am always frustrated by people that don't understand customs and limits when they buy from countries not in a trade agreement zone.  I would recommend you always note to people by email message before you send a package that this WILL incur local charges that will include customs, local taxes and additional delivery charges (In the UK for example the post office levy a £12 delivery charge from the customs office to your house regardless of the customs fee.  You can end up pay £2 of customs and £12 of additional postage)

[TANV]

10 hours ago, Phil B said:

My suggestion is contrary to what @brickvoyeur says: I would tell them that these are likely import fees, and that as per your T&Cs the recipient is responsible for these fees. Tell them what you declared on the package (I assume the invoice total) and leave it at that. 

You might want to give them the option to refuse, and tell them you will refund them their money minus shipping costs and any administrative fees you get levied with once the package returns.

Thanks. I just explained to the guy that they were customs fees and linked him to the French government customs site.  I also explained how they're incurred in EU countries and if I lie on the form, that's pretty much fraud, tax evasion, perjury. Fun stuff.

I did check over my T&C and I did state that international buyers are responsible for paying the customs and import fees. I did say he could refuse the package and it'd be sent back to me, exactly as you said. The buyer has like 4 review to him so a total newbie by alkl accounts.

Thanks for your advice, @brickvoyeur, @Phil B, @TomOOO.

[TANV]

Oh man. So he responded:

Yes but it seems it’s proper to the USA as u register the package with an amount value, and you can normally just ask for insurance. I already receive package from Canada and there wasn’t any fees to take my package.

I don't think having insurance matters as much as declared value. Furthermore, I'm not Canadian; this doesn't seem relevant. I'm trying to figure out how to respond without telling him to man up and stop his whiny and stupid-ass complaining.

What also is a bit off is that he keeps responding through email instead of BL. I'm going to block his email.

Edited December 19, 2020 by TANV

[Randyipp]

1 hour ago, TANV said:

Oh man. So he responded:

Yes but it seems it’s proper to the USA as u register the package with an amount value, and you can normally just ask for insurance. I already receive package from Canada and there wasn’t any fees to take my package.

I don't think having insurance matters as much as declared value. Furthermore, I'm not Canadian; this doesn't seem relevant. I'm trying to figure out how to respond without telling him to man up and stop his whiny and stupid-ass complaining.

What also is a bit off is that he keeps responding through email instead of BL. I'm going to block his email.

Oh man, what you are dealing with here is a moron. This person is trying as hard as possible to get out of paying for these import fees.  My suggestion when anyone anywhere has an import fee issue is to create a post on the BL forum, make it very on point and act like you are not sure why they need to pay. Once the people start responding and likely flaming your buyer a bit for not understanding customs import fees and their own country, point them to the discussion. Make sure you are 100% on the side of the buyer in the post and other people will do the dirty work for you and some of them will be people who live in France.  

Unfortunately in this type of situation you have to educate the buyer in the laws of their own country and that is best handled by a group of people not just 1 person. Someone will take the advise or knowledge of a group much better than an individual. 

Good luck, hopefully this doesn't stay a lose/lose situation for you. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Randyipp

[TANV]

3 minutes ago, Randyipp said:

Oh man, what you are dealing with here is a moron. This person is trying as hard as possible to get out of paying for these import fees.  My suggestion when anyone anywhere has an import fee issue is to create a post on the BL forum, make it very on point and act like you are not sure why they need to pay. Once the people start responding and likely flaming your buyer a bit for not understanding customs import fees and their own country, point them to the discussion. Make sure you are 100% on the side of the buyer in the post and other people will do the dirty work for you and some of them will be people who live in France.  

Unfortunately in this type of situation you have to educate the buyer in the laws of their own country and that is best handled by a group of people not just 1 person. Someone will take the advise or knowledge of a group much better than an individual. 

Good luck, hopefully this doesn't stay a lose/lose situation for you. 

That's a bit of an escalation and I don't think I can try to pull off the ignorance part too well. The email I had sent him before this response was the following but I guess he's not paying attention. I mean I would like to attribute it to something lost in translation but I'm pretty damn sure it isn't. I've sent orders internationally before and the other buyers were all AWARE of the potential customs fees. I mean he ordered $200 worth of sets from me.

> Hi XXXXX,
>
> Based on what you have informed me, it is likely the extra 56 Euros are the customs and import fees, local taxes, and possibly handling fees imposed by the French government. Here is some more information regarding the issue: http://www.douane.gouv.fr/
>
> These charges are typically incurred when sending merchandise from non-EU zones to the EU countries. The fees were likely calculated based on what was declared on the customs form of the package, which is what I invoiced you. By law, I am required to ensure that the what was in the shipment was correct and truthful. It is illegal to lie on a customs form by US and International law. To do so would be considered fraud, tax evasion, and perjury.
>
> As an international buyer, you are responsible for paying any customs and import fees. However, you do have the option of refusing to pay for the shipment. This will let the package be sent back to the US and I can refund you your money minus the shipping costs and fees that would be levied once I receive the package in my possession. You should also be able to track the shipment as well.
>
> I hope this helps clarify things.
>
> Thank you.

[Randyipp]

I would bet he's paying attention and can read fine but just doesn't want to accept having to pay the fee.  You can still create a post to force him to change his position it just can't come from total ignorance.  Something to the effect of "I had a buyer in France who thinks they can avoid paying customs import fees on an order, is this possible without breaking any laws?"  You should add in a bit more about how they have "never paid import fees" and how insurance can help with that, which makes zero sense.  Just don't describe your buyer negatively just put the question out there and let the others answer it for you.

[kaczy]

2 hours ago, TANV said:

...I already receive package from Canada and there wasn’t any fees to take my package....

It could be as well $3 order which probably avoided any customs fee

[legochris]

51 minutes ago, Randyipp said:

I would bet he's paying attention and can read fine but just doesn't want to accept having to pay the fee.  You can still create a post to force him to change his position it just can't come from total ignorance.  Something to the effect of "I had a buyer in France who thinks they can avoid paying customs import fees on an order, is this possible without breaking any laws?"  You should add in a bit more about how they have "never paid import fees" and how insurance can help with that, which makes zero sense.  Just don't describe your buyer negatively just put the question out there and let the others answer it for you.

You can’t force the guy to change his position. If he doesn’t want to pay he just refuses to take delivery and doesn’t pay the fee. And leaving a negative feedback will just result in one back.

Sorry, but it’s damage limitation from here on unless he has a change of heart.

[BrickLover80]

You may also want to point out that the EU and Canada have a comprehensive free-trade agreement, whereas the US and the EU have been fighting over subsidies for aircraft manufacturers (Boeing vs. Airbus) and have been slapping more tariffs on each other in the past 4 years.

I stopped mailing anything of value to my family in the EU since a big disaster in 2017. Only what fits into the suitcase when we visit each other.

 

[Randyipp]

17 minutes ago, legochris said:

You can’t force the guy to change his position. If he doesn’t want to pay he just refuses to take delivery and doesn’t pay the fee. And leaving a negative feedback will just result in one back.

Sorry, but it’s damage limitation from here on unless he has a change of heart.

Sure you can.  You can at least try by means of education.  Would you suggest giving up and taking a loss here? 

I think all suggestions are welcome trying to help out a fellow seller, might as well offer something if you are going to shoot down someone's idea.

I also think depending on how much it is worth to you, you could offer a partial refund to see if that would help, but that is the very last thing I would do and fight to avoid that.

[Phil B]

My advice: send one more email expressing your sympathy with his situation but that there is nothing you can do. He can pay the import fees or refuse delivery, and you will refund once the package is back to you (with all the deductions yada yada).

Then stop responding.

The more you engage, the more he will try to make this your problem.

[TANV]

4 hours ago, Phil B said:

My advice: send one more email expressing your sympathy with his situation but that there is nothing you can do. He can pay the import fees or refuse delivery, and you will refund once the package is back to you (with all the deductions yada yada).

Then stop responding.

The more you engage, the more he will try to make this your problem.

Yeah, I'm going to just send one more message via BL expressing this. I want to make sure I have a paper trail in case he tries to open a Paypal report. It's just ridiculous.

[SLL]

so in this case, since the package arrived at buyer's country, if buyer refuses to pay the custom which results in the package becomes undeliverable. What does paypal think of this if, say, a NR case is opened by buyer?

[TANV]

New Update: the buyer said he'd go pay the fees after I explained things to him. I also posted a threat on BL just to get more input from others, including @Randyipp so I think it's all resolved for now.  We'll see if the Paypal charge back happens in the next 6 months!

[Randyipp]

1 hour ago, TANV said:

New Update: the buyer said he'd go pay the fees after I explained things to him. I also posted a threat on BL just to get more input from others, including @Randyipp so I think it's all resolved for now.  We'll see if the Paypal charge back happens in the next 6 months!

Really hope it works out, I think you have done as mush as you possibly can at this point to get the situation resolved as peacefully as possible.  I always try to protect my own seller rating, and to me I think you did as much as you could.  At least if they give you a neutral or negative no buyer would care about it if it mentions import fees as most have a basic understanding of how the world works.  You have all this communication if the buyer tries anything with PayPal.  If you can you might want to spend the extra $2 or so on premium tracking that will hold that information for an additional 6 months just in case they try something at the last second.  That might be a bit paranoid too.

On 12/20/2020 at 3:05 PM, SLL said:

so in this case, since the package arrived at buyer's country, if buyer refuses to pay the custom which results in the package becomes undeliverable. What does paypal think of this if, say, a NR case is opened by buyer?

I'm not 100% but I'm pretty sure if it gets sent back to the seller the buyer would also get fully reimbursed.

[LegoMan1212]

Can we just say how embarrassing it is on how much BL has missed such an opportunity to really beef up the traffic going through the site.  When their Lego sets were 75-90% sold out at LEGO Shop at Home, they didn't once even mention BL has an alternative option to shop at.

To me, shame on them for being terrible salesmen and opportunists. BUT, this is nothing new anyways, just very very sad on how much they suck at trying to actually make BL popular. 

Also, I'll add an example.  If you search for any Retired Lego Set on google.  Bricklink should pop up at least on the 1st page.  It doesn't and I would be surprised if it showed up by page 10 which doesn't matter, because if you are not within 1 half-scroll down the page from the initial search, it is too late and you won't get clicked on.  Nothing shows up, in my examples that I have tried, when clicking the "shopping" tab either.  

It almost appears as if they are trying NOT to get noticed. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by LegoMan1212

[brickvoyeur]

9 hours ago, LegoMan1212 said:

Also, I'll add an example.  If you search for any Retired Lego Set on google.  Bricklink should pop up at least on the 1st page.  It doesn't and I would be surprised if it showed up by page 10 which doesn't matter, because if you are not within 1 half-scroll down the page from the initial search, it is too late and you won't get clicked on.  Nothing shows up, in my examples that I have tried, when clicking the "shopping" tab either.  

It almost appears as if they are trying NOT to get noticed. 

I searched a bunch of items. Bricklink was the 4th or 5th link on the first page. Not sure what sets you are searching for. The coorelation looks to be that the older a set is, the higher up BL appears as most of your thrid party sales sites have sold out of them already, and they have been removed from their websites.

Currently available sets do not show up on the first page, as there are a ton of stores still selling them. Walmart, Amazon, Target, Kohls, etc. all have more revenue power for Google than Bricklink.

They won't shop up on the shopping tab, as the site is not integrated into Google shopping. 

Sets checked (10243, 10185, 10182, 10246, 10212, 8039, 8093, 8088, 75043, 75102, 75100, 60200, 60204)

[LegoMan1212]

1 hour ago, brickvoyeur said:

I searched a bunch of items. Bricklink was the 4th or 5th link on the first page. Not sure what sets you are searching for. The coorelation looks to be that the older a set is, the higher up BL appears as most of your thrid party sales sites have sold out of them already, and they have been removed from their websites.

Currently available sets do not show up on the first page, as there are a ton of stores still selling them. Walmart, Amazon, Target, Kohls, etc. all have more revenue power for Google than Bricklink.

They won't shop up on the shopping tab, as the site is not integrated into Google shopping. 

Sets checked (10243, 10185, 10182, 10246, 10212, 8039, 8093, 8088, 75043, 75102, 75100, 60200, 60204)

Ok, you proved me incorrect on that.

I still think they are terrible at trying to drive traffic to them with their 0 effort advertising.  How hard would it be to put a small postcard sized advertisement into their Lego.com orders or a small 1/2 page advertisement in their catalog they mail out, or had Batman mention it during their Lego show, or put a little sticker sheet with a promo code of 5% off a BL order that the site grants in every Lego Box that sellers would have to sign up for and agree with?  Do you think I would agree with 5% off discounts if traffic went up 100-1000-10000%?  Damn right I would.  

To me, they are just the equivalent of the kid that buys candy from the gas station and sells it to only the kids in his class, and not the entire grade, let alone offer it to others at their school.  The market is millions of people, but they are only reaching a few thousand.

[marcandre]

Google is not interesting in giving the best or most accurate search result. The highest revenue producing result is what they give us. 

I wouldn't want Lego directing people to BL. Can still find deals on there. Once the masses invade that will be over. I really don't sell much there though. May not matter, grandma & soccer moms could never navigate BL in it's current state. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by marcandre

[$20 on joe vs dan]

3 hours ago, marcandre said:

Google is not interesting in giving the best or most accurate search result. The highest revenue producing result is what they give us. 

I wouldn't want Lego directing people to BL. Can still find deals on there. Once the masses invade that will be over. I really don't sell much there though. May not matter, grandma & soccer moms could never navigate BL in it's current state. 

I agree.  BL is clearly (intentionally) treated by LEGO as their bastard redheaded step-child

for better or worse

[Randyipp]

4 minutes ago, LegoLegend420 said:

Is it owned by LEGO group?

Yes.

 

Why do you think they are working so hard on Bricklink XP? to make it easier for the masses to buy...