10221 - UCS: Super Star Destroyer

[Ma-gic]

The price in the local craiglist equivalent (Marktplaats) has gone down significantly. Down to €700-750 for a new sealed in box.

I was very lucky to sell two used sets for €650 few months back...that was a 70% ROI as I bought them used and hold for few months. Now, I won't touch it even at that buy-in. Just too risky and money better spend for smaller sets.

Granted, an AFOL still won't touch a fake as I have sold one to a AFOL.

[brickvoyeur]

Just now, Ma-gic said:

Granted, an AFOL still won't touch a fake as I have sold one to a AFOL.

I wish that were the case. I have a great local base that I have given good deals to for years due to their continued purchases. I've lost a handful of my best AFOLs to the allure of lower costs. One told me something to the tune of "it's gotten to the point where the cost for something you're going to open and display isn't worth the risk of depreciation. Why spend 8-10 times the cost for these retired UCS sets when I can buy an identical one that I never have to sell? I'll lose more in depreciation in a few years while the prices continue to fall, than I will buying a knockoff."

 

The point that hit me the hardest, outside of losing yet another high spender, is the that I can see his point. Buying something at a very high cost, that you have to sell to take the same or a greater loss, than you would buying junk that can be made into the same model that you can keep without the large investment. Looking at the knockoff distributor website it looks like they have vendors who can send you a SSD for less than $80 shipped. By the time you're hit by fees and shipping on a SSD, you're nearly down $80 as it is... and that's if you can sell it for what you paid.

 

It doesn't surprise me at all, as Pseudoty found, that the  top 3 sellers of the knockoffs have sold over 700 units, and that only 1 of the last 12 sold was authentic. I don't even want to take a guess at how many are selling on the knockoff distributor site. Many have said that true collectors will not buy this garbage, well I know a few that were true collectors for years that have changed sides... and the availabilty of these cheap duplicates ensures that many never have a chance to become true collectors.  If everything is cheap and available they never have to pine over any set. Why scrape for a UCS Falcon when you can get one shipped to your door for less than $200?

 

On a positive note... I guess ... even the buyers who have dipped into the knockoff pool have a price limit. They continue to buy pretty much all the mid level priced sets anyways.

[Val-E]

It´s going to be interesting to see what the new UCS Falcon does to the market, especially regarding 10179.

[KShine]

40 minutes ago, brickvoyeur said:

I'll lose more in depreciation in a few years while the prices continue to fall, than I will buying a knockoff."

Extremely true - No ones wants to feel the fool.

The previous buyers of our high priced sets didn't reach that financially secure point in life, by being foolish. As long as that $1,500 set was in all likelihood going to continue to go up in value, it didn't matter that it was $100 a few years earlier. You also had the eager early buyers, who were looking to be smart, by buying it up for $1,000.

All of the reasons that would justify being an eager buyer are gone. Nowadays, no one is left kicking themselves (a few months down the line) after not overpaying earlier.

Now, the smart thing to do is just wait - during which time, prices are going down (which actually makes a set seem less appealing), re-releases are happening (which increases uncertainty for a buyer), and that impulsive buyers interests have moved elsewhere.

Edited July 25, 2017 by KShine

[Val-E]

If there´s one set that needs a TLJ boost, it´s this one. Flirting with 1000 Euros back in TFA times, it is now going for between 550 and 650 on Ebay.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Val-E

[Fenix_2k1]

51 minutes ago, Val-E said:

If there´s one set that needs a TLJ boost, it´s this one. Flirting with 1000 Euros back in TFA times, it is now going for between 550 and 650 on Ebay.

With 75192 out this is to be expected for a while until people get their copy and need another large model to build.  I think all Star Wars UCS sets will suffer up until Xmas and then start to rebound early next year.

[flynnibus]

On 7/25/2017 at 3:48 PM, brickvoyeur said:

Many have said that true collectors will not buy this garbage, well I know a few that were true collectors for years that have changed sides... and the availabilty of these cheap duplicates ensures that many never have a chance to become true collectors.  If everything is cheap and available they never have to pine over any set. Why scrape for a UCS Falcon when you can get one shipped to your door for less than $200?

People thought the same thing about Transformers... "the true collectors will never buy Knockoffs"

What changed the tide was - KO got better in quality..  while originals were reducing their quality AND raising their prices

Eventually the KOs items became 'known entities' themselves instead just faceless Knockoffs.  While there are some purists still, the quality KO products have established their own following and niches.. and actually get people to pay 50-75% of the "original" brand's prices.  By increasing quality, they increased their market AND price they could charge.

All the hatred people had about Hasbro/Takara, people were even more willing to try a KO.. and then when they were IMPRESSED by the KO.. there was no going back to the "I'll never buy a KO' camp anymore.

As long as the KOs remain such a cheap quality and don't offer any value BESIDES price... they will stay contained and have an impact only on the real high dollar items.  But if they start being equal or better in quality.. or offer things Lego won't..  that's when it can get dangerous.

In the current Lego world... I think the 'polluting' the market with unmarked KO is the biggest issue as issues hurt buyer confidence.  At least in Transformers, many KOs have gone to making things distinctively identifiable... which makes it easy to co-exist.

[gregpj]

People thought the same thing about Transformers... "the true collectors will never buy Knockoffs"
What changed the tide was - KO got better in quality..  while originals were reducing their quality AND raising their prices
Eventually the KOs items became 'known entities' themselves instead just faceless Knockoffs.  While there are some purists still, the quality KO products have established their own following and niches.. and actually get people to pay 50-75% of the "original" brand's prices.  By increasing quality, they increased their market AND price they could charge.
All the hatred people had about Hasbro/Takara, people were even more willing to try a KO.. and then when they were IMPRESSED by the KO.. there was no going back to the "I'll never buy a KO' camp anymore.
As long as the KOs remain such a cheap quality and don't offer any value BESIDES price... they will stay contained and have an impact only on the real high dollar items.  But if they start being equal or better in quality.. or offer things Lego won't..  that's when it can get dangerous.
In the current Lego world... I think the 'polluting' the market with unmarked KO is the biggest issue as issues hurt buyer confidence.  At least in Transformers, many KOs have gone to making things distinctively identifiable... which makes it easy to co-exist.

I'm sorry but the KOs suck and anyone who tells me otherwise is lying to me and to themselves. But even the real thing isn't made from the same quality plastic as the original G1s.

You're right that they coexist somewhat peacefully but I've talked to many local collectors and it's easy to pick out the true collectors (who often buy both) and those who just buy the cheap knockoffs because they can't afford the real thing. I've bought/sold from someone who imports the KOs and for his own personal collection he has to have the real thing. Around here we call that a hypocrite but he buys with real cash.

I don't buy knockoffs because I don't like to support companies whose business model is to high jack someone else's ideas and marketing. It's something our family does in part because we can afford to and also because ethically it is questionable at best.

How does that relate to LEGO? People are cheap... people sometimes have questionable ethics. Fakes capitalize on both of those things.

[waddamon]

I will never buy anything knock off, watches, collectibles, toys.  The problem here is not the knock off, its lego devaluing their own brand.  Which means no longer a limited, rare collectible with value, which now just makes it a toy.  And no one pays top dollar for a toy.

[flynnibus]

4 hours ago, gregpj said:

 

I'm sorry but the KOs suck and anyone who tells me otherwise is lying to me and to themselves. But even the real thing isn't made from the same quality plastic as the original G1s.
 

The Collector Kingdom MP-10 is better or as good quality than all the Hasbro/Takara edition MP-10s.  I have many of them.  Takara Convoy, Takara Nemesis Prime, YOTH Optimus Prime, Hasbro Asia MP-10 reissue.  The recent Hasbro MP-10 reissue has been arguably one of the worst.  The Weijang OS MP-10 blows them all away.

Cloud9's Quake blast is probably the best masterpiece for your dollar figure available.  It's amazing and 1/2 to 1/3 the price of an equivalent Takara figure (while MP-29 is a freaking joke).  I have Quakeblast, Quakewave, and MP-29 all right next to each other here.

Most of the carbot KOs have gotten to the point people would be hard to ID which is the KO.  KO Wheeljack for instance, some of the Nissan figures, bumble, or the vans, etc.  To the figures with paint QC issues, people seem to forget the takara figures have similar issues too... or just flatout have failures (like MP-9). 

There are many that are bad... just like there are many first party figures that aren't good..   but to dismiss them all simply because they aren't first party is putting your head in the sand.  

4 hours ago, gregpj said:

You're right that they coexist somewhat peacefully but I've talked to many local collectors and it's easy to pick out the true collectors (who often buy both) and those who just buy the cheap knockoffs because they can't afford the real thing. I've bought/sold from someone who imports the KOs and for his own personal collection he has to have the real thing. Around here we call that a hypocrite but he buys with real cash.

Some buy the KO simply because Hasbro/Takara failed...  And that's one of the points from my other post.  The biggest push that gets KO successful is the FAILURE of the first party.  When they start gouging customers, start monkeying with availability, start failing on the quality front... they are opening the door for the KOs that are on their tail.  With figures like Ironhide... and the insanity of even figures bought overseas pushing $120+ for carbots... people will hit their tipping point.  People know now that the KOs are coming quicker and quicker, their quality is nearly on par with the Takara figure.. and will probably be half the cost.  Each time Takara misses, KOs gets stronger.

 

4 hours ago, gregpj said:

I don't buy knockoffs because I don't like to support companies whose business model is to high jack someone else's ideas and marketing. It's something our family does in part because we can afford to and also because ethically it is questionable at best.

Well... I'd be careful about the glass houses when trying to call out ethics when you're in a community of scalpers.

[gregpj]

18 minutes ago, flynnibus said:

The Collector Kingdom MP-10 is better or as good quality than all the Hasbro/Takara edition MP-10s.  I have many of them.  Takara Convoy, Takara Nemesis Prime, YOTH Optimus Prime, Hasbro Asia MP-10 reissue.  The recent Hasbro MP-10 reissue has been arguably one of the worst.  The Weijang OS MP-10 blows them all away.

Cloud9's Quake blast is probably the best masterpiece for your dollar figure available.  It's amazing and 1/2 to 1/3 the price of an equivalent Takara figure (while MP-29 is a freaking joke).  I have Quakeblast, Quakewave, and MP-29 all right next to each other here.

Most of the carbot KOs have gotten to the point people would be hard to ID which is the KO.  KO Wheeljack for instance, some of the Nissan figures, bumble, or the vans, etc.  To the figures with paint QC issues, people seem to forget the takara figures have similar issues too... or just flatout have failures (like MP-9). 

There are many that are bad... just like there are many first party figures that aren't good..   but to dismiss them all simply because they aren't first party is putting your head in the sand.  

Some buy the KO simply because Hasbro/Takara failed...  And that's one of the points from my other post.  The biggest push that gets KO successful is the FAILURE of the first party.  When they start gouging customers, start monkeying with availability, start failing on the quality front... they are opening the door for the KOs that are on their tail.  With figures like Ironhide... and the insanity of even figures bought overseas pushing $120+ for carbots... people will hit their tipping point.  People know now that the KOs are coming quicker and quicker, their quality is nearly on par with the Takara figure.. and will probably be half the cost.  Each time Takara misses, KOs gets stronger.

 

Well... I'd be careful about the glass houses when trying to call out ethics when you're in a community of scalpers.

You're comparing apples and oranges .. I said knock offs. KO versions. Not true third party or fan versions or whatever you want to call them. Many of those are licensed or so totally different (like your Collector Kingdom MP-10) that comparing them is only shoving your head in the sand about the issue of fakes and how so many manufacturers of those fakes STEAL licensed IP, use inferior quality materials and outright LIE in their online advertisements for those products. I have no complaints about manufacturers who sell on their own merits or acknowledge "fan made model" which is common with Transformers.

I would much rather buy a real version with paint issues than a fake with paint issues. I would much rather buy less LEGO products with slight color variations in the bricks than bogus bricks that have ZERO quality control measures in the chemical composition of the bricks. And I know that's making a big leap, but the Chinese businesses/manufacturers cut corners - we all know it, we just don't all choose to acknowledge it.

PS Your comment about a community of scalpers is 100% uncalled for. If you don't like this community then might I suggest you find somewhere else to post and hang out. Frankly, it's not welcome.

PPS I've called out many members over the years about their ethics.

PPPS If anyone wants to get a kick out of ethics, read what this seller says about import taxes ..  https://www.amazon.com/Transformers-Masterpiece-Diecast-Oversized-BestGrey/dp/B018OPZYCQ .. WHAT A LOW LIFE PIECE OF TRASH.  ** EDIT: He even stole someone else's photos and just blurred the text out. **

 

 

[Lordoflego]

36 minutes ago, gregpj said:

 

PPPS If anyone wants to get a kick out of ethics, read what this seller says about import taxes ..  https://www.amazon.com/Transformers-Masterpiece-Diecast-Oversized-BestGrey/dp/B018OPZYCQ .. WHAT A LOW LIFE PIECE OF TRASH.  ** EDIT: He even stole someone else's photos and just blurred the text out. **

 

 

But, but you need to trust him...he says so

[flynnibus]

4 hours ago, gregpj said:

You're comparing apples and oranges .. I said knock offs. KO versions. Not true third party or fan versions or whatever you want to call them. Many of those are licensed or so totally different (like your Collector Kingdom MP-10) that comparing them is only shoving your head in the sand about the issue of fakes and how so many manufacturers of those fakes STEAL licensed IP, use inferior quality materials and outright LIE in their online advertisements for those products.

Every figure I mentioned was a copy of takara (minus quakeblast... which was a copy of quakewave).  The CK mp-10 is identical with better blue paint and great figment.  The weijang figure is a direct oversized copy of MP-10.  I think you are judging things you don't even have a footing in.

 

 

4 hours ago, gregpj said:

PS Your comment about a community of scalpers is 100% uncalled for. If you don't like this community then might I suggest you find somewhere else to post and hang out. Frankly, it's not welcome.

 When you are judgmental and hypocritical... don't be upset when you get called out on it.

[Val-E]

30 minutes ago, flynnibus said:

 

 When you are judgmental and hypocritical... don't be upset when you get called out on it.

Well that does sound like 100% of the community!

[Phil B]

Well hello good morning Ironbrick, how have you been?

[gregpj]

6 hours ago, flynnibus said:

Every figure I mentioned was a copy of takara (minus quakeblast... which was a copy of quakewave).  The CK mp-10 is identical with better blue paint and great figment.  The weijang figure is a direct oversized copy of MP-10.  I think you are judging things you don't even have a footing in.

Sorry, you're right .. I don't own any of those bootleg fakes so I can only judge on what I see or read. PS Oversized copy is not identical, but now we're getting technical aren't we?

What I see is fakes and copies and sellers who are skirting the laws overtly. See, the thing is that you may not agree with the premise of buying for the quick flip around here but it's 100% LEGAL to do so. Copying someone else's product/design without permission, marketing it as the real thing by copying their logo and marketing materials, selling them with the promise of getting around tax laws .... NOT LEGAL.

6 hours ago, flynnibus said:

When you are judgmental and hypocritical... don't be upset when you get called out on it.

Every single member of this forum who has posted illegal ways of obtaining discounts or selling their product has:

1. had their posts deleted

2. been warned or banned from posting without approval

3. been outright banned from the site

My comment is simply ... I love those fan-made products that do not claim to be authentic products. They take a real idea and make it better (I have not the time nor the money nor the desire to collect them, but many do). Licensing? That's an issue for another day .. That local collector that I've traded/bought/sold with showed me on the back of the Takara Tomy boxes the TWO Chinese symbols/letters/words (not sure what to call them, I do not speak Chinese) that are different on the KO packaging. They are buried in the back near the UPC symbol. That is legit unscrupulous branding and packaging. How many people likely have those thinking they are genuine?

If those asshats who made bogus bricks made their OWN designs of the UCS Millennium Falcon and it was better, go for it... sell it, make a profit. Then you can deal with Disney and licensing. But when they piggy back their own business plan on the success of someone else ... well, that's poor and unethical if not illegal in many parts of the world.

PS I'm not judging you for your beliefs, I'm judging because every single person who has disagreed with you on these forums gets some over the top holier than thou bullshit in response normally avoiding the entire point of the original comments/discussion and directing that conversation in a direction about unsavoury resellers and how nasty we all are.

TL;DR When members are asses in the forums, they get modded without question (I'm not perfect, I've been modded myself). Fakes and knockoffs of any kind are not welcome because they're highly questionable, likely unethical and often illegal. Discussion is tolerated because it does affect the LEGO reselling market.

6 hours ago, Val-E said:

Well that does sound like 100% of the community!

That's a pretty bold and jaded statement. Have you ever considered taking a break for a while?

[Val-E]

35 minutes ago, gregpj said:

That's a pretty bold and jaded statement. Have you ever considered taking a break for a while?

Sarcasm  in writing just doesn´t travel well.

[gregpj]

35 minutes ago, Val-E said:

Sarcasm  in writing just doesn´t travel well.

No, and if that was sarcasm .. I take it back. I really thought you were serious... had my feathers all ruffled I guess.

I was INCORRECT.

 

[flynnibus]

20 minutes ago, gregpj said:

Sorry, you're right .. I don't own any of those bootleg fakes so I can only judge on what I see or read. PS Oversized copy is not identical, but now we're getting technical aren't we?

Resizing copyrighted material does not make it unique or a new work.  Printing the Mona Lisa smaller doesn't make it the Muna Lisa ?

Your retort was the classic stone wall of 'why we will never buy KO' and not understanding at all why the KOs are successful where they are.. and what exposure the 1st party really has to them.

25 minutes ago, gregpj said:

What I see is fakes and copies and sellers who are skirting the laws overtly. See, the thing is that you may not agree with the premise of buying for the quick flip around here but it's 100% LEGAL to do so. Copying someone else's product/design without permission, marketing it as the real thing by copying their logo and marketing materials, selling them with the promise of getting around tax laws .... NOT LEGAL

Legality was never the subject.  It was about ETHICS.  You tried to preach about how you were holding some moral high ground with your stance against buying those products.  Recap:  "I don't buy knockoffs because I don't like to support companies whose business model is to high jack someone else's ideas and marketing. It's something our family does in part because we can afford to and also because ethically it is questionable at best."

So yeah, glasshouses when this community embraces and encourages behavior that is exploitive and manipulative in disrupting supply for personal gain.  That's just as ethically questionable.. and probably worse since everyone doing it here is doing it for personal financial gain vs just having a toy they want.

46 minutes ago, gregpj said:

But when they piggy back their own business plan on the success of someone else ... well, that's poor and unethical if not illegal in many parts of the world

Hrmm.. you mean like people who try to create an unauthorized secondary market outside the normal distribution channel for the sole purpose of personal gain by exploiting timing and manipulating supply?  Yeah, many would call that poor and unethical.  So I'd cool the jets on throwing stones at people who decide a 3rd party product or even a KO is the right fit for their personal need.  Both are legal...  both have their own moral qualms.  Decide what side of the line you want to be on.. that's fine... but don't act like a saint while throwing stones and having your own grey areas.

 

[KShine]

7 hours ago, flynnibus said:

 When you are judgmental and hypocritical... don't be upset when you get called out on it.

Ok then, I gave you a pass at the time (I think it was your first post, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt) - but I thought that you seemed to be.. exactly what you are.

  On 8/31/2017 at 1:54 PM, KShine said:

LEGO has killed "Special" - and it will never be coming back again.

I still get that 'special' feeling when building my sets and exploring what the designers have created.  If speculation was the only thing 'special' about Lego to you..  *shutter*

[John82]

Beanie Babies should make an appearance soon!!

[Val-E]

Yeah but none of this has anything to do with 10221, does it? Ok, the reason for the fall in prices could be the KO´s but there are plenty of other possible explanations.

To get back on topic - have you guys all ditched your 10221´s or are you looking for a recovery during TLJ?

The risk of a remake also has to be considered,

[boliramirez]

9 hours ago, flynnibus said:

Resizing copyrighted material does not make it unique or a new work.  Printing the Mona Lisa smaller doesn't make it the Muna Lisa 

Your retort was the classic stone wall of 'why we will never buy KO' and not understanding at all why the KOs are successful where they are.. and what exposure the 1st party really has to them.

 

Legality was never the subject.  It was about ETHICS.  You tried to preach about how you were holding some moral high ground with your stance against buying those products.  Recap:  "I don't buy knockoffs because I don't like to support companies whose business model is to high jack someone else's ideas and marketing. It's something our family does in part because we can afford to and also because ethically it is questionable at best."

So yeah, glasshouses when this community embraces and encourages behavior that is exploitive and manipulative in disrupting supply for personal gain.  That's just as ethically questionable.. and probably worse since everyone doing it here is doing it for personal financial gain vs just having a toy they want.

Hrmm.. you mean like people who try to create an unauthorized secondary market outside the normal distribution channel for the sole purpose of personal gain by exploiting timing and manipulating supply?  Yeah, many would call that poor and unethical.  So I'd cool the jets on throwing stones at people who decide a 3rd party product or even a KO is the right fit for their personal need.  Both are legal...  both have their own moral qualms.  Decide what side of the line you want to be on.. that's fine... but don't act like a saint while throwing stones and having your own grey areas.

 

Where is the Mop guy when you need him  .................. Anyone?

 

9 hours ago, Val-E said:

Yeah but none of this has anything to do with 10221, does it? Ok, the reason for the fall in prices could be the KO´s but there are plenty of other possible explanations.

To get back on topic - have you guys all ditched your 10221´s or are you looking for a recovery during TLJ?

The risk of a remake also has to be considered,

 

I sold 2 of my remaining 3 in the past 2 months...... I will keep the last one for me......

[Val-E]

I sold my only copy (bought at full RRP) earlier this year and almost doubled my money. Felt a bit silly not to have sold up during TFA but now I feel relieved I finallly parted with it. Those expensive sets are really hard to shift, especially in a hurry.

[boliramirez]

Just now, Val-E said:

I sold my only copy (bought at full RRP) earlier this year and almost doubled my money. Felt a bit silly not to have sold up during TFA but now I feel relieved I finallly parted with it. Those expensive sets are really hard to shift, especially in a hurry.

I sell both in Mexico and in the US. the smaller sets in the US and the Larger ones in Mexico... as I have said before , the market for expensive toys is way smaller in Mexico, but you can sell them at a higher price due to the scarcity of the big sets in this market....   I sold the last SSD's for 1400 each... so not bad for a 2 and a half year hold....