Need advice about dishonest ebay buyers

[robbmass]

I just sold a Lego Attack of the Wargs.  BNIB.  I've been selling for 11 years with 379 100% feedbacks and no negative feedbacks.

I bought it new, took pictures of it to sell on Ebay, packaged it well.  This was a brand new unopened item.

 

The buyer opens a case with ebay (he has feedback of 11) and says,  "The box was already opened. The instructions for this set were in the box but the Legos included were not this set.  As well, there was a World of Warcraft action figure set included...My son is very upset that what he thought he was receiving was not at all what you promised."

 

I've never owned a World of Warcraft action figure!  

 

How will Ebay handle something regarding my word vs his son's word?

 

I need advice, please. 

 

Thanks!

[Ed Mack]

Welcome to the site.  Where did you buy the set?  

[Ed Mack]

Attack of the Wargs is not some highly valued set.  It sounds like the kid and/or parent has been doing some reading on the internet about scamming eBay sellers.  I'll let experienced eBay sellers answer your question.

[@rtisan]

That sucks, I`m really sorry to hear that this happened to you. Easily the biggest fear amongst anyone who sells is being scammed, I`m certain of that. Sadly I can`t offer you any advice, this isn`t my department, but damn that`s really twisted. My guess would be that Ebay will take your track record into consideration and possibly recognize that this is in fact a scam. Does the buyer have lots of feedback? Positive? Negative?

[justafrog]

Be very polite. Respond to the case requiring them to return the set to you. If they bother to do that (most scammers won't, they're hoping you'll just pay them) dispute the return with eBay (there is an option to state they did not return what you sent them, and a place to add photos.)

 

eBay will review your track record and the buyer's track record. The most likely outcome, if the buyer hasn't tried scamming before, is that eBay will issue them a refund but not deduct from your account, IF you follow the return steps properly, dispute it, and don't become emotional and sound like a whack-a-mole in your communications with eBay and the buyer.

 

The next most likely outcome, if the buyer hasn't tried scamming before, is that they'll refund the buyer and charge that refund to your PayPal account.

 

The last outcome is if the buyer has a record of scamminess, and then eBay will refuse the return.

 

The buyer may not be lying. I personally purchased a set that appeared sealed and fine, for my Bricklink inventory, and when I opened it I found resealed LEGO bags full of random used toys. But Ed is right that on a low value set that seems less likely.

[terrymc4677]

It could have possibly been purchased, emptied and replaced with junk, returned, and then put back on the shelf where you found and purchased it without knowing of the contents. We have been hearing about this occurring more and more lately. It seems people have gotten very good at removing and replacing the seals so the package looks un tampered with. It's scary to think how many sets like this are sitting in our stashes, and the only way we will ever discover them is after we sell and ship them to an unsuspecting buyer who immediately labels us as a scam artist ourselves.

The wargs isn't a highly valued set, but people who do this sort of thing don't always care about value. They just do it for the rush and the feeling of "getting away with something". Sadly, the only thing you can do in this situation is issue the refund, explain what happened (or what you think might have happened), apologize, cut your losses, and move on. Just be thankful that it didn't happen with a highly valuable set. If you have been selling for 11 years then consider yourself lucky that this is only the first time it has happened.

[stackables]

I think a see a future where everyone opens their sets before selling them on ebay. Terrible situation.

[Ed Mack]

I think a see a future where everyone opens their sets before selling them on ebay. Terrible situation.

i think the future is here. If people are getting scammed on a set like Attack of the Wargs, then every set with seals is at risk. Once this sort of fraud hits the social networks, it will increase to out if control levels until eBay enables sellers to leave negative feedback once again.

In this case, since it's a $40 set, it is probably worth asking for the set back and refunding the money. It's not worth the trouble.

Sent from my iPhone using Brickpicker

[@rtisan]

I think a see a future where everyone opens their sets before selling them on ebay. Terrible situation.

That`s definitely possible. Honestly not a bad practice either for those who sell, new complete sets sell very close to sealed ones anyway in most cases, with a few exceptions. 

[justafrog]

Opening the set before sellling will help - to a point. It will tell us as sellers that we are sending out what we advertised and were not duped ourselves when we purchased the set for resale.

 

However, it only goes so far in preventing actual scammers. No matter how many photos you take of the set, or of yourself packing the set, or of you personally handing the package to the mailman, it doesn't help eBay in a he-said/she-said situation (because you could take all those photos and still not actually be sending that to the buyer, if you - generic you - are a scammer yourself).

 

What matters at that point is your reputation on eBay versus the buyer's reputation on eBay.

 

Also, I understand the desire to not fuss over $40 and not require the return, but understand that that encourages this buyer to try the same thing with the next seller (and every other seller who caves in because $40 isn't worth the hassle encourages the buyer to try the same thing with you) and that eBay has a better record of a buyer's scamming tendencies if you actually go through the process so they can see a pattern of "not as described" "returned" "good seller disputed the return".

[hollywdbri]

Recent experience of mine. Sold a sealed Series 10 box. Buyer lets it sit at their post office waiting for signature for ~20 days. Files eBay claim. eBay denies their claim, since when tracked, the package is clearly waiting at the post office for them. After their eBay claim is denied, they go pickup the package from post office. Buyer now has their box of Series 10.

 

3 months pass, they now file a chargeback with their credit card company. Claiming "not as described". Paypal removes the funds from my account. Paypal takes my full account of what is happening, it's clearly a chargeback scam, but all Paypal does is file a counter dispute on my behalf. It's been about 2 months since and I haven't heard a thing.  At this point I assume I'll have to eat the loss. 

 

For those who want to block this buyer, their account name is "igotwired". It's a company named Pacific Pillows LLC.

 

Just sharing my experience.

[Ed Mack]

Opening the set before sellling will help - to a point. It will tell us as sellers that we are sending out what we advertised and were not duped ourselves when we purchased the set for resale.

However, it only goes so far in preventing actual scammers. No matter how many photos you take of the set, or of yourself packing the set, or of you personally handing the package to the mailman, it doesn't help eBay in a he-said/she-said situation (because you could take all those photos and still not actually be sending that to the buyer, if you - generic you - are a scammer yourself).

What matters at that point is your reputation on eBay versus the buyer's reputation on eBay.

Also, I understand the desire to not fuss over $40 and not require the return, but understand that that encourages this buyer to try the same thing with the next seller (and every other seller who caves in because $40 isn't worth the hassle encourages the buyer to try the same thing with you) and that eBay has a better record of a buyer's scamming tendencies if you actually go through the process so they can see a pattern of "not as described" "returned" "good seller disputed the return".

You are right. It's the principle that counts here. Let them make an effort by returning the set and filling out some forms. If they are legit, they will do it. Worst case scenario, you are out $40.

Sent from my iPhone using Brickpicker

[legoray01]

The other issue here is number of feedbacks some one has.  Long - term scammers will not have that many feedbacks. 

 

 

Someone with positive feedback as a seller is probably a much better buyer. 

[justafrog]

3 months pass, they now file a chargeback with their credit card company. Claiming "not as described". Paypal removes the funds from my account. Paypal takes my full account of what is happening, it's clearly a chargeback scam, but all Paypal does is file a counter dispute on my behalf. It's been about 2 months since and I haven't heard a thing.  At this point I assume I'll have to eat the loss. 

 

 

Paypal can only do so much on your behalf - and this is the same with ANY credit card processing company, by the way, it's not that PayPal is particularly lazy or inept, it's just that most of us don't have a lot of experience with other credit card processors.

 

Don't give up on them just yet - they do file those counter disputes, and credit card companies are not highly amused when their cc holders turn out to be thieves, as it leaves them on the hook, too, in many cases. You may or may not get the money back, and yes you will eat some losses, but folks have reported getting money back on these disputes months later. You can always call PayPal for a status update, their CS tends to be quite good and easy to work with.

[cladner]

I think a see a future where everyone opens their sets before selling them on ebay. Terrible situation.

 

warning.  thread d-railer

 

or leads to the rise of the lego secondary market "certifiers" like evolve in all other collectibles (cards, barbies, action figures etc).

the situation is at hand with minifigures.

could see it happening with complete sealed sets.

 

for example, i have access to digital fluoro x-ray equipment at my work.

i'm going to take some x-rays of larger sets that i then open up to establish some kind of at least x-ray standard of what sets should look like on an x-ray without being unsealed - obviously will have to kind of shake the set around a little to make sure the parts are not overlapping and take pictures for 3 or 4 views.

and then take pictures of similar unopened sets to compare.

maybe in the future people will send me sets to x-ray and then certify that they contain the contents without having to break open seals that i then send back for a fee of course with the set encased in a hermetically sealed plexiglass box.

this isn't something you would do with a $20 set but with a larger sets where people are talking about hundreds-thousands on line it would be useful.

yes i am crazy.

[justafrog]

warning.  thread d-railer

 

or leads to the rise of the lego secondary market "certifiers" like evolve in all other collectibles (cards, barbies, action figures etc).

the situation is at hand with minifigures.

could see it happening with complete sealed sets.

 

for example, i have access to digital fluoro x-ray equipment at my work.

i'm going to take some x-rays of larger sets that i then open up to establish some kind of at least x-ray standard of what sets should look like on an x-ray without being unsealed - obviously will have to kind of shake the set around a little to make sure the parts are not overlapping and take pictures for 3 or 4 views.

and then take pictures of similar unopened sets to compare.

maybe in the future people will send me sets to x-ray and then certify that they contain the contents without having to break open seals that i then send back for a fee of course with the set encased in a hermetically sealed plexiglass box.

this isn't something you would do with a $20 set but with a larger sets where people are talking about hundreds-thousands on line it would be useful.

yes i am crazy.

 

Not ENTIRELY crazy.

 

But, the vast majority of LEGO collectors are builders - even someone willing to spend thousands on a set isn't going to want to pay the additional fee (that the seller will have to pass along to them) for something he's going to open and build anyway. They'll happily buy a set that the seller has opened and verified, or they'll take a chance on a sealed set (most of which are going to be fine) knowing that eBay and PayPal will back them if they get a box of books and cat litter.

 

For the 1% (.5%? very low anyway) of collectors who never want to open the box, a service like you're describing, or something along those lines, may be something they're willing to pay a premium for. It will be a very tiny share of the market.

[KShine]

Even if you open sealed sets, take photos, x-rays, have videos made of you packing the box, and bringing it to the post office - a scammer would still be able to claim that it was not what was sent. Unless the buyer has a clear history of abusing the system - all the proof in the world means nothing.

[cladner]

Even if you open sealed sets, take photos, x-rays, have videos made of you packing the box, and bringing it to the post office - a scammer would still be able to claim that it was not what was sent. Unless the buyer has a clear history of abusing the system - all the proof in the world means nothing.

 

unless you are selling on a private market outside of ebay, outside of paypal.

payment in cash.  insurance policy to settle any claim with any claim resulting in an actual criminal investigation to determine what happened.

i'm sure if you are willing to pay enough for white glove delivery and insurance you can obviate even the above situation.

again, not for a $20 set, but for the dozen or so top sets out there....

 

and then that set sells for 1.3 M bit coins in 2112 to the guy who invents dimensional portals for liquids and the resulting pipeless plumbing that revolutionized both architecture and water conservation for a thirsty planet.

[justafrog]

Even if you open sealed sets, take photos, x-rays, have videos made of you packing the box, and bringing it to the post office - a scammer would still be able to claim that it was not what was sent. Unless the buyer has a clear history of abusing the system - all the proof in the world means nothing.

 

You're correct. But that doesn't necessarily mean the seller's going to eat the loss - eBay does refund out of their own pocket when they have a seller with a good track record and a buyer with a good track record both claiming they're in the right. Not always, but worth a shot.

 

I remember the last big buyer purge (that I heard of anyway) a couple years ago - it was very satisfying to see the eBay discussion boards erupt with the wails of buyers losing their buyer protection privileges because they'd at the least been gaming the refund system and at the worst outright running scams.

[sadowsk1]

Why is it assumed that the buyer is a scammer or dishonest?  It may have happened.  I agree with other posters, let them send it back and see what happens.  

[Ed Mack]

What you all need is a place to sell your sets that protects the sellers more than the buyers....hmmmmm. Interesting.

Sent from my iPad using Brickpicker

[KShine]

You're correct. But that doesn't necessarily mean the seller's going to eat the loss - eBay does refund out of their own pocket when they have a seller with a good track record and a buyer with a good track record both claiming they're in the right. Not always, but worth a shot.

 

I remember the last big buyer purge (that I heard of anyway) a couple years ago - it was very satisfying to see the eBay discussion boards erupt with the wails of buyers losing their buyer protection privileges because they'd at the least been gaming the refund system and at the worst outright running scams.

 

Correct, eBay will usually try to agree with both parties involved, and use some of our premium fees to pay off both (and to keep the peace).

[nolanfan34]

One thing that would probably help is to send Lego feedback about their packaging. They know they have a valuable product and price it accordingly. They're splitting up minifigs to different bags in a set. I think the next step is a packaging change to remove the tape seals somehow. 

[cladner]

What you all need is a place to sell your sets that protects the sellers more than the buyers....hmmmmm. Interesting.

Sent from my iPad using Brickpicker

cmon already what the heck is taking so long.

there would be a huge supportive response.

[jerryherb]

on top of weighing and inspecting the seals has anyone ever considered/used a fiber optic camera to inspect the contents without breaking the tape seals? seems like it could work. what do you think?

 

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