STAR WARS VII - "The Force Awakens" - Movie Discussion

[jaisonline]

4 minutes ago, KShine said:

None of these new movies should be considered as canon.

George Lucas is the only person who knows what actually happened in Star Wars. He had the story, Disney rejected it, and replaced it with another one.

Imagine the Beatles had written an original album, but all the rights/control were purchased by someone else. The buyers then decided they didn't like the songs (maybe it didn't sound enough like their other material), so the owners wrote their own songs (which sounded very similar to other Beatles songs), and brought in other musicians to play them, and then they released that as a Beatles album.

The movies might be good, even great - but they will never really be Star Wars.

sometimes time passes by very talented people , they get washed up, they get too stubborn.  then these folks don't know it's time to walk away or walk away too late.  Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Kobe Bryant, Steve Carlton, George Lucas.  i just hope harrison ford knows it (nudge: Indy 5 after lucas' Indy 4 debacle)

[exciter1]

3 minutes ago, jaisonline said:

sometimes time passes by very talented people , they get washed up, they get too stubborn.  then these folks don't know it's time to walk away or walk away too late.  Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Kobe Bryant, Steve Carlton, George Lucas.  i just hope harrison ford knows it (nudge: Indy 5 after lucas' Indy 4 debacle)

I think Arnold is there, but Stallone has surprisingly stayed inventive.

I won't recognize AXL/DC.

[fossilrock]

Rey's growth didn't bother me, just as much as much as Luke blowing up the DS in ANH after many pilots more trained, and longer in the service failed doesn't bother me.  It's making hero's outta the common man/woman! People love that stuff.

But..but there's no constable zuvio minifigure, just yet!  Maybe he'll be an eventual polybag promo!  So lego did it right, just like they did it right when they made a Black Widow minifig on her motorcycle, while all the other toy manufactures failed to think about it.  Although, they did make the snowspeeder, but i'll give them a pass on that, because it was in the deleted scene and could have played a more major role in the film.

Here's my main beef of things that bother me and the biggest beef is the complete disregard of physics!  Guys standing next to an opened compartment on a Imperial Star Destroyer without a spacesuit on, and without getting sucked out into space!  The fact that zero gravity plays zero role, and that when they go into hyperspace they don't have timetravel paradox when they arrive at their destination.  The fact that they can go into hyperspace and be there within the next 20 minutes from across the galaxy!  I had this issue in the Clone Wars TV series too.

The timing at the end had terrible pacing, when they are saying "system will be charged in 2 minutes", and then 5 minutes later in the film the weapon still hasn't fired.  I also saw a map that showed where each star was located within the galaxy.  No way, could they have seen hosnian prime get blown up if it was that far away from that planet.  They made it seem like that planet was within the hosnian prime complex.  it would have been like mars, venus and jupiter getting blown up.  Maybe that was the case, but then the Star Wars.com needs to update their maps. Then, how the heck did Kylo and Craptin Phasma get saved when Rey and Finn barely made it off the planet in the nick of time?

So, that is what bothers me about it.  But, if I toss that out and just go with it, i'm deeply entertained by this film.
 

[Alpinemaps]

33 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

I will always wonder what could have been if JJ Abrams  directed the script Lucas turned in for this movie. At least it would have been something new. 

It always surprised me to hear people say that, after all the criticism that Lucas gets for the PT.  While I don't mind the PT, I do acknowledge that the scripting could have used some rewriting.  Although I'm curious to know what Lucas' plans were, I like the idea of washing everything else away, and going with what we got.

14 minutes ago, KShine said:

None of these new movies should be considered as canon.

George Lucas is the only person who knows what actually happened in Star Wars. He had the story, Disney rejected it, and replaced it with another one.

Imagine the Beatles had written an original album, but all the rights/control were purchased by someone else. The buyers then decided they didn't like the songs (maybe it didn't sound enough like their other material), so the owners wrote their own songs (which sounded very similar to other Beatles songs), and brought in other musicians to play them, and then they released that as a Beatles album.

The movies might be good, even great - but they will never really be Star Wars.

That's not really the same thing.  I think in your example you would have to have the Beatles singing the new songs.

George Lucas willingly gave up creative control on Star Wars.  So, he doesn't know what happened in Star Wars.  Disney/Lucasfilm does.  Anything George writes is just fanfic now, just like the rest of us.  Canon is set by the people that own the property, and that's now Disney.  You may not like it, but that doesn't change it.

11 minutes ago, jaisonline said:

sometimes time passes by very talented people , they get washed up, they get too stubborn.  then these folks don't know it's time to walk away or walk away too late.  Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Kobe Bryant, Steve Carlton, George Lucas.  i just hope harrison ford knows it (nudge: Indy 5 after lucas' Indy 4 debacle)

Breaking character here for just a second - THAT is why I do not acknowledge the existence of Indy 4.

[exciter1]

If Hollywood and moviegoers would have stuck to the story/timeline of Ian Fleming's 007 books, "The Man With The Golden Gun" would have been the last film in the series.  Well, that was a lucrative departure.

[zskid00]

32 minutes ago, fossilrock said:

So, that is what bothers me about it.  But, if I toss that out and just go with it, i'm deeply entertained by this film.
 

Yep.  I've got some issues with this film, but I try to also be entertained and excited by the return of Star Wars.  It's hard for me to go back and see this through my six year old eyes when I was blown away by A New Hope.  I would have liked a better bridge between Episode 6 and 7 because the launching point was not what I expected and the state of the universe needed some more explanation in my opinion.  The movie was fast paced and glossed over many answers I was looking for.

 

[jeff_14]

1 hour ago, fossilrock said:

The intro was pretty darn original.  The only part that I agree could have been left out is the starkiller base sequence.  I'd have rather seen something other than another death star concept.  However, the rest of the film followed it's own path.  To state that this is a ripoff is selling it short..

 

No, i'm not kidding.  To me that fight scene was better than anything in the prequels.  Ok, maybe the fight scene in ESB is on par with it, but that scene was excellent. 

"The fight scene accomplished nothing"?  Huh.. wow. 

 

Rey and Finn were leaving the planet before Ren showed up. After the fight scene they left the planet. Only difference is Finn was injured. Nothing that followed would have been different if that fight had not happened. Leia would still hug Rey instead of Chewie over Han's death, Artoo would have still woken up, Rey would still go looking for Luke, etc. As for whether the fight did anything for the combatants themselves, we already knew Finn had overcome his reluctance to fight by going to Starkiller in the first place so getting his butt handed to him really didn't prove anything. We knew Rey was developing Force omnipotence before the fight as she was mastering force powers she'd never even heard about every few minutes before the fight. If the movie had lasted 10 minutes longer she'd probably be good enough to take out Vader with both hands tied behind her back. Because the Force. Seeing her battle a badly wounded Ren did nothing to argue for how strong she is given everything we'd already seen of her powers, and a wounded Ren undermines his threat level so we're not seeing anybody in that fight at the top of their game, unlike in every other fight we've ever seen where at least one person was highly competent. It was an ugly fight with no real technique and no satisfactory tension or drama, and then when there's about to be some the ground literally cracks open right between them in such a convenient way. I'm sure there will be consequences to this "fight" in the next movie but as far as this movie goes it was a lot of noise signifying nothing. Contrast that with every other duel we've had and this falls way short, including the prequels where every one of those throwdowns mattered within their own movie as well as later.

Maybe this film could have used more politics so that there was some reason to care about important plot points. It seems the writers' biggest realization was to make everything bigger. Like how they had to emphasize how Starkiller was so much bigger than the Death Star (I loved that he had that graphic ready to go at the touch of a button), or how now instead of blowing up just one planet (Alderaan) we'll blow up 5 planets that no one knows anything about and have never seen before or anyone who's from there and we're supposed to care. I felt more emotionally when the Jedi were killed in Revenge of the Sith than with the silly way they offed Han. It seemed like a scene they did just for the sake of pleasing people used to having someone die every week on Game of Thrones. 

[Bold-Arrow]

That fight scene is when Rey let the force "in" ... That actually was my favorite part of the movie . Just saying ( couldn't resist that phrase ). 

[jeff_14]

18 minutes ago, Bold-Arrow said:

That fight scene is when Rey let the force "in" ... That actually was my favorite part of the movie . Just saying ( couldn't resist that phrase ). 

I understand that, but she was already a pro at everything force related she tried before that so this really didn't change our understanding of the character. I agree with those who think she's a Mary Sue character in this, which is too bad because I like the actress and really enjoyed her performance. In ANH we are told that Luke is an expert at shooting innocent creatures in flight already so it is not as odd for him to be good at flying the x-wing. Indeed, since we learn he's force sensitive we now understand why he's been so good at flying and shooting womp rats all this time through his unconscious use of the force, much like Anakin in his podracing. But if Luke had fought Vader after Kenobi bought it with no more training than his 5 minute remote training on the falcon, and beat him let alone lasted longer than 5 seconds we'd be laughing at it. Even in Empire after some time to practice and then train with Yoda after letting the Force in he still gets his butt handed to him and only isn't killed because Vader wants his son alive. By the time he defeats Vader in combat in ROTJ, he's earned his place in the ring. Whereas all I know that Rey is good at in this movie is scavenging and swinging a bo staff, which is a completely different instrument than a sword. I find Finn credible with his use of the lightsaber because he's had stormtrooper training as part of a unit that's expecting to find and confront Jedi. Rey has no experience at all, and if all you need to do to win a fight despite severe inexperience is let the force in, then why do Jedi and Sith or anyone force sensitive even bother practicing lightsaber skills at all? Just Force your way out of every conceivable situation. Disappointing.

Edited April 19, 2016 by jeff_14

[thoroakenfelder]

4 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

I understand that, but she was already a pro at everything force related she tried before that so this really didn't change our understanding of the character. I agree with those who think she's a Mary Sue character in this, which is too bad because I like the actress and really enjoyed her performance. In ANH we are told that Luke is an expert at shooting innocent creatures in flight already so it is not as odd for him to be good at flying the x-wing. Indeed, since we learn he's force sensitive we now understand why he's been so good at shooting womp rats all this time through his unconscious use of the force. But if Luke had fought Vader after Kenobi bought it with no more training than his 5 minute remote training on the falcon, and beat him let alone lasted longer than 5 seconds we'd be laughing at it. Even in Empire after some time to practice and then train with Yoda after letting the Force in he still gets his butt handed to him and only isn't killed because Vader wants his son alive. By the time he defeats Vader in combat in ROTJ, he's earned his place in the ring. Whereas all I know that Rey is good at in this movie is scavenging and swinging a bo staff, which is a completely different instrument than a sword. I find Finn credible with his use of the lightsaber because he's had stormtrooper training as part of a unit that's expecting to find and confront Jedi. Rey has no experience at all, and if all you need to do to win a fight despite severe inexperience is let the force in, then why do Jedi and Sith or anyone force sensitive even bother practicing lightsaber skills at all? Just Force your way out of every conceivable situation. Disappointing.

If we take the OT as gospel, I think the explanation for Rey's sudden ability to do all that she did can be explained by an exchange between Obi-Wan and Luke:

Luke: You mean it controls your actions?

Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

It makes it sound like the force can and might take control, especially if you "Feel the force flowing through you."

As far as Finn holding his own, he's just flailing about  until Ren sees the proper opening and strikes him down.

[jeff_14]

24 minutes ago, thoroakenfelder said:

If we take the OT as gospel, I think the explanation for Rey's sudden ability to do all that she did can be explained by an exchange between Obi-Wan and Luke:

Luke: You mean it controls your actions?

Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

It makes it sound like the force can and might take control, especially if you "Feel the force flowing through you."

As far as Finn holding his own, he's just flailing about  until Ren sees the proper opening and strikes him down.

Agree on Finn. He was never going to do well but it's to his credit that he could at least fight semi-competently. I have my theory that Rey was trained as a youngster and then made to forget her force background for reasons to be revealed which would go somewhere in explaining why she can do all these things (like where would she even get the idea that she could mind control the guard to let her go since she never would have seen that before). Hence the title the Force Awakens as it has awakened in her. But until we have an explanation, all we have is a movie that gives us no answers other than if you let the force in you can do anything without experience and in spite of complete inexperience. Which is disappointing because Jedi and Sith let the force in and use it all the time, so you would think someone with even a passing familiarity would be better at making it obey his/her commands. Who prevails when 2 force users are both letting the flow thorugh-ing happen? Is it like a green lantern ring and the more willpower you have the stronger Jedi you are? Makes the midichlorians seem simple by comparison. I don't find a character who has magical abilities just thrust upon them without some dues being paid very interesting. 

[Darth_Raichu]

5 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

Agree on Finn. He was never going to do well but it's to his credit that he could at least fight semi-competently. I have my theory that Rey was trained as a youngster and then made to forget her force background for reasons to be revealed which would go somewhere in explaining why she can do all these things (like where would she even get the idea that she could mind control the guard to let her go since she never would have seen that before). Hence the title the Force Awakens as it has awakened in her. But until we have an explanation, all we have is a movie that gives us no answers other than if you let the force in you can do anything without experience and in spite of complete inexperience. Which is disappointing because Jedi and Sith let the force in and use it all the time, so you would think someone with even a passing familiarity would be better at making it obey his/her commands. Who prevails when 2 force users are both letting the flow thorugh-ing happen? Is it like a green lantern ring and the more willpower you have the stronger Jedi you are? Makes the midichlorians seem simple by comparison. I don't find a character who has magical abilities just thrust upon them without some dues being paid very interesting. 

Or maybe Force Osmosis was Rey's primary ability ?  When she touched Luke's lightsaber she automatically absorbed Luke's knowledge up to movie 5.  The same way she absorbed Han's piloting skills when she touched MF.  This would explained how she knew MF so well and basically understood the ship like Han, even though she was not a pilot.

 

[jeff_14]

7 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Or maybe Force Osmosis was Rey's primary ability ?  When she touched Luke's lightsaber she automatically absorbed Luke's knowledge up to movie 5.  The same way she absorbed Han's piloting skills when she touched MF.  This would explained how she knew MF so well and basically understood the ship like Han, even though she was not a pilot.

 

Actually they explained in the movie that she had been on the ship a few times with Unkar and had even gotten into arguments about making modifications to it. As for being a good pilot able to survive attacks by experienced Tie Fighter pilots despite having minimal experience, what famous Star Wars family does that remind you of?

[Alpinemaps]

what famous Star Wars family does that remind you of?

The Kenobi family?

[exciter1]

3 minutes ago, Alpinemaps said:

The Kenobi family?

[Darth_Raichu]

30 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

Actually they explained in the movie that she had been on the ship a few times with Unkar and had even gotten into arguments about making modifications to it. As for being a good pilot able to survive attacks by experienced Tie Fighter pilots despite having minimal experience, what famous Star Wars family does that remind you of?

Too bad all of those midichlorian testers were destroyed during the Clone Wars, otherwise we would have known if Rey had higher count than Yoda

[Val-E]

Was it ever fully explained why they changed the satellite dish on the MF in TFA?

[fossilrock]

2 hours ago, thoroakenfelder said:

If we take the OT as gospel, I think the explanation for Rey's sudden ability to do all that she did can be explained by an exchange between Obi-Wan and Luke:

Luke: You mean it controls your actions?

Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

It makes it sound like the force can and might take control, especially if you "Feel the force flowing through you."

As far as Finn holding his own, he's just flailing about  until Ren sees the proper opening and strikes him down.

And Rey did feel the force..   I think one of the most iconic scenes in the movie, and when I saw it for the first time it made my hair stand on ends, was when their lightsabers are locked and Kylo says "I can teach you the ways of the force", and Rey just looks at him with that blue/red glow around her, twitches her eyes, then falls into that trance before unleashing on Kylo by letting the force take a hold of her. 

It was clear as day to me what happened there.  I still love that scene.  One of my favorite Star Wars scenes of all time.

34 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Too bad all of those midichlorian testers were destroyed during the Clone Wars, otherwise we would have known if Rey had higher count than Yoda

Wow, you wins the internet for the day!  

[LegoAddict42]

I'm sorry but I have to chime in on one point that several of these posts seem to miss. It is that while Rey didn't have experience with the light saber specifically she spent the last 13 + years on Jakku defending herself against other scavengers. Did you not remember her kicking Unkar's thugs butts fairly easily? Also it was mentioned she spent quite a bit of time on the MF and other ships learning all she could about them. Luke had piloting skills but little if any fighting skills. Rey had lots of fighting skills but not much piloting skills. Given that I don't see her holding her own against Kilo that much of a stretch.

[California92563]

I can understand why some people think that it's ridiculous about how she's able to fly the falcon without a hitch and how she's able to wield a lightsaber and tap into the face as if she was master yoda himself but it all makes sense when you notice the small things that many members on here have pointed out. Like Rey faintly mentioned she's been on the falcon and recommended improvements to Unkar before so that shows she's mechanically smart plus she grew up as a scavenger so that only adds to it. Next I strongly believe the theory that she was at Luke's academy as a youngling and when sh!t hit the fan she was put into exile and her memory was wiped for her own protection. Plus like another member mentioned she was easily able to take down those thugs with her staff and since she grew up alone she obviously had to learn how to protect herself and a staff is a lot like a lightsaber. The last part about her being able to call upon the force is given away by the movie's title "the force awakens" ergo it awoke from a dormant state because her mind was wiped so that would tie into the whole Jedi academy theory. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by California92563

[CoastaLego]

Master yoda you say?  You mean the guy that lost every battle we ever saw on screen. Still don't understand why he just couldn't win one light saber duel in 6 movies..but oh well. 

[California92563]

4 minutes ago, CoastaLego said:

Master yoda you say?  You mean the guy that lost every battle we ever saw on screen. Still don't understand why he just couldn't win one light saber duel in 6 movies..but oh well. 

I was mainly referring to her powers with the force And the only time he fought was in episode 2 and 3. 

Edited April 20, 2016 by California92563

[California92563]

And if I recall he beat count dooku since dooku ran with his tail between his legs 

[CoastaLego]

5 minutes ago, California92563 said:

And if I recall he beat count dooku since dooku ran with his tail between his legs 

No way. Lucas had the power to write whatever he wanted and that battle was weak. Dooku was not even damaged.  

I wasn't directing this at you. I know yoda is known as the great jedi of the time but every time I think of him I get mad at the prequels and what could have been. I know the empire has to thrive in the end bit yoda should have been made more of a bad ass imo. 

[California92563]

19 minutes ago, CoastaLego said:

No way. Lucas had the power to write whatever he wanted and that battle was weak. Dooku was not even damaged.  

I wasn't directing this at you. I know yoda is known as the great jedi of the time but every time I think of him I get mad at the prequels and what could have been. I know the empire has to thrive in the end bit yoda should have been made more of a bad ass imo. 

Yeah but he was never meant to be a fighter. He was more of a mentor, teacher, and leader to the Jedi because he was so wise and was "one with the force" so to speak. It's true that Dooku was never damaged in the fight with yoda but he ran for it since he knew what yoda was capable of, the little guy was his master Afterall . 

Edited April 20, 2016 by California92563