STAR WARS VII - "The Force Awakens" - Movie Discussion

[Darth_Raichu]

6 minutes ago, sauromosis said:

Everything I've seen from the trailers looks great.  I'm excited to see the movie.  And they might have a an excuse not to have Luke in the movie for more than a few minutes but I HATE, HATE the decision and I've been waiting since 1983 to see Luke be the most powerful Jedi Master in the universe.  Unless we see this in movie 8, they messed up big time.

Just because he was not in the trailer did not mean he was not going to be a big part of ep7.  For all we know, he could be the Deus ex machina at the end of the movie

 

[exciter1]

I'm pretty sure he is barely in Ep 7, but has a big part in Ep 8.  Feel free to quote this and slap me after Dec. 18.

[Locutus001]

12 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Agree to disagree then.  Even if the remnants of the Empire wanted to get him, he was still a freakin Jedi who could take care of himself.  If Anakin could train a padawan during the Clone Wars, why couldn't Luke?

 

Luke and Anakin are two very different characters.

I see luke more as the yoda and old obiwan kind of guy.

 

Anakin could train a padawan during the Clone Wars because

1. There have been more than enough Padawan (and potential ones that only have been too old for training ^.^)

2. It was quite common for a Jedi(Master) to train a Padawan

3. He got trained in the old ways with exactly that system of --> training a padawan.

 

Luke has got:

1. No Padawan... maybe there are some force sensitives lingering around somewhere but he would need to find them (the empire is doing a not all too bad job getting these people if we follow "SW Rebels")

2. It's not a well established system right? Galaxy is shattered and still in war. But this war is different from the one you mention.

3. Luke might be a Jedi and maybe even a Jedi Master but he never received formal training. He got the two weeks workshop form of it while being way too old. However he is a natural as it seems. I'm sure there are some difficulties coming up there. I wouldn't be suprised if he decides that he needs time to figure out what the "force" wants him to do etc.

 

So yes of course it would be possible for him to train other force sensitives. But there is not obligation. Also chances of finding people and training them in peace are low. Then he needs to figure some stuff out for himself. There are plenty of good reasons why he might not have trained anyone.

Also without jedi and sith there would be some kind of balance right? The dark side is (kind of...) gone after palpatine and vader are death. People are no longer influenced by sith. Time for them to make decissions for themselves.

 

Last but not least: Yes he is a freakin' Jedi who can take care of himself. Probably very powerful too. But that doesn't make him invincible. As we all might remember from the clone wars: A whole lot of clones (or battle droids) could very well kill jedi. There is only so much you can block or hide from. Especially with that strategy of passivety jedis do have. Remember: Yoda got out of it because he's one of the strongest jedi at that time AND he had the support of the wookies. Obi-Wan got lucky. Other very well trained jedi masters have not been that fortunate. And not only because they've been shot out of nowhere. Some sensed the danger and defended themselves but they have been overwhelmed. There literally is no reason for Luke to run around as if he'd be invincible.

[Darth_Raichu]

13 minutes ago, Locutus001 said:

3. Luke might be a Jedi and maybe even a Jedi Master but he never received formal training. He got the two weeks workshop form of it while being way too old. However he is a natural as it seems. I'm sure there are some difficulties coming up there. I wouldn't be suprised if he decides that he needs time to figure out what the "force" wants him to do etc.

At the end of RotJ, Luke had access to 3 Jedi ghosts, 2 of them were Jedi Masters when they were alive.  As ObiWan showed, they could still teach even AFTER they were one with the force.

 

[jeff_14]

8 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

At the end of RotJ, Luke had access to 3 Jedi ghosts, 2 of them were Jedi Masters when they were alive.  As ObiWan showed, they could still teach even AFTER they were one with the force.

 

When did we see this? The moment Obi-wan went all spectral he started outsourcing training to Yoda. He only popped in to nag and reveal his complete lies after that and admit what a horrible teacher he'd been when he was alive. Yoda didn't do any teaching after kicking off either. 

I think they're being very good at keeping what's up with Luke under wraps as everyone is talking about it because of it. My theory is that he went to the gray side. He has balanced the light and dark sides of the force just as his dad did and now he's probably worried about getting too involved in deciding how the galaxy should unfold. I suspect he's being very hermit like a la Obi Wan, and may be loathe to get involved because his student, Kylo Ren, didn't turn out so well. 

[Darth_Raichu]

4 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

When did we see this? The moment Obi-wan went all spectral he started outsourcing training to Yoda. He only popped in to nag and reveal his complete lies after that and admit what a horrible teacher he'd been when he was alive. Yoda didn't do any teaching after kicking off either. 

I think they're being very good at keeping what's up with Luke under wraps as everyone is talking about it because of it. My theory is that he went to the gray side. He has balanced the light and dark sides of the force just as his dad did and now he's probably worried about getting too involved in deciding how the galaxy should unfold. I suspect he's being very hermit like a la Obi Wan, and may be loathe to get involved because his student, Kylo Ren, didn't turn out so well. 

Who said "Use the force Luke" before Luke shot the DS?  How was that not teaching?

[jeff_14]

13 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Who said "Use the force Luke" before Luke shot the DS?  How was that not teaching?

That's teaching? He'd already said that line before. That's just repetition. I don't think it's all that easy for force ghosts to just pop up. No one even knew how to do it before Qui-Gon and it took him over 10 years after dying to even talk to Yoda. The old EU books dealt with this a bit in saying that it's not always possible and Obi-wan told Luke he wouldn't be able to do it for much longer. Granted that may have changed since the Disney purchase but I don't think the ghosts can just pop up whenever. Luke didn't see Ben again after the Death Star for quite a while, and there's no indication he saw him again after that until ROTJ. Luke is basically on his own. That's why Yoda tells him to pass on what he has learned. If it Yoda could pass on what he knows after death he wouldn't need to tell Luke that at all. 

 

[biking_tiger]

4 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

That's teaching? He'd already said that line before. That's just repetition. I don't think it's all that easy for force ghosts to just pop up. No one even knew how to do it before Qui-Gon and it took him over 10 years after dying to even talk to Yoda. The old EU books dealt with this a bit in saying that it's not always possible and Obi-wan told Luke he wouldn't be able to do it for much longer. Granted that may have changed since the Disney purchase but I don't think the ghosts can just pop up whenever. Luke didn't see Ben again after the Death Star for quite a while, and there's no indication he saw him again after that until ROTJ. Luke is basically on his own. That's why Yoda tells him to pass on what he has learned. If it Yoda could pass on what he knows after death he wouldn't need to tell Luke that at all. 

 

What is teaching if not repetition? I barked some lessons ad nauseam during 13 years as a classroom teacher--enough to make me a little nauseous. Reminding Luke to trust the force while in the teachable moment before firing his torpedoes was more "teaching" than ever before.

Let's all realize this argument is built upon the sandy foundation of George Lucas's storytelling in the PT/OT and his misguided revisionist history in the special editions.

 

[Darth_Raichu]

6 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

That's teaching? He'd already said that line before. That's just repetition. I don't think it's all that easy for force ghosts to just pop up. No one even knew how to do it before Qui-Gon and it took him over 10 years after dying to even talk to Yoda. The old EU books dealt with this a bit in saying that it's not always possible and Obi-wan told Luke he wouldn't be able to do it for much longer. Granted that may have changed since the Disney purchase but I don't think the ghosts can just pop up whenever. Luke didn't see Ben again after the Death Star for quite a while, and there's no indication he saw him again after that until ROTJ. Luke is basically on his own. That's why Yoda tells him to pass on what he has learned. If it Yoda could pass on what he knows after death he wouldn't need to tell Luke that at all. 

 

Lol and here I thought that scene was clear as day. Luke was looking around the cockpit as if someone behind him said it.  That was a communication from ObiWan, not Luke remembering things.

At his deathbed, Yoda did not even know if he was going to be able to do Jedi Ghost technique.  He knew about it but never performed it. So his message to Luke made sense then.

 

14 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

That's why Yoda tells him to pass on what he has learned. If it Yoda could pass on what he knows after death he wouldn't need to tell Luke that at all.

Quoting here for @Locutus001 benefit. 

[jeff_14]

I know very well that was Obi wan's voice. My point is repeating three words is not much evidence of teaching and appears to be th only evidence of it. That no padawan left behind policy is doomed to fail as much as Obi wan's previous efforts. The evidence from the original trilogy is that both Yoda and Obi wan knew they could become ghosts, ghosts, and yet Yoda still tells Luke to pass on what he's learned. They clearly don't intend to to doing any training in their afterlife. Yoda even says all all wants is to rest like any senior citizen. 

[Darth_Raichu]

9 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

My point is repeating three words is not much evidence of teaching

Teaching involves repetitions.  That is just a given.

[jeff_14]

If all you hacve to offer a 20 year old is repeating 3 words, it's time to update your syllabus. That is the only evidence of any training whatsoever and is pretty weak. Obi-wan tells Luke to go to Yoda for training. A fully functioning training ghost wouldn't need to do that. Obi-wan tells Luke he can't interfere with his fight with Vader, so his training options seem very limited. Yoda tells Luke to pass on what he has learned and that he just wants to rest. This is all far better evidence of the opposite side of the argument. Right now in the Disney approved Marvel Star Wars comics, the writers have cottoned onto the idea that Luke has no training after Obi-wan bites it and are creating events where Luke learns how to use the force and his lightsaber in the time prior to Empire in order to give some explanation of how he goes from barely knowing how to hold a lightsaber in New Hope to using telekenesis, etc. at the start of Empire. If ghosts could/would teach, wouldn't Obi-wan be more active at a time when Luke knows absolutely nothing and is in the middle of fighting a war?

[jeff_14]

49 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Lol and here I thought that scene was clear as day. Luke was looking around the cockpit as if someone behind him said it.  That was a communication from ObiWan, not Luke remembering things.

At his deathbed, Yoda did not even know if he was going to be able to do Jedi Ghost technique.  He knew about it but never performed it. So his message to Luke made sense then.

 

Quoting here for @Locutus001 benefit. 

Why would Yoda not know he could pass on? Even if you ignore the prequels, he and Obi-wan are clearly comfortable with the idea of passing on. If someone far far younger and inexperienced in the force like Obi-wan can become a ghost, why wouldn't Yoda expect to? He's arguably the most powerful of all Jedi. The prequels certainly confirm this since we know it was Yoda who taught Obi-wan how. Yoda knew exactly what he was saying.

[Battrax]

Frankly, all of this makes more and more sense. Ineffective teachers and a questionable understudy who happened to be force sensitive = melodramatic "saviour" bumbling his way to (almost accidentally) decapitating the Empire yet only managing to reinvigorate the power structure below the Emperor.

Interested to see how the scriptwriters deal with the power vacuum and the regime's loyalists in TFA.

[Darth_Raichu]

6 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

If all you hacve to offer a 20 year old is repeating 3 words, it's time to update your syllabus.

I do not know, how would a coach "teach" a young kicker just a few seconds before he does an important penalty kick?

[jeff_14]

6 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

I do not know, how would a coach "teach" a young kicker just a few seconds before he does an important penalty kick?

He'd tell him to aim straight because the goalie always moves. Obviously.  :)

[Battrax]

5 minutes ago, Darth_Raichu said:

I do not know, how would a coach "teach" a young kicker just a few seconds before he does an important penalty kick?

"You better not miss, you expensive little piece of bovine excrement, or you'll be sold off to a 3rd division team in Andorra."

[jeff_14]

8 minutes ago, Battrax said:

Frankly, all of this makes more and more sense. Ineffective teachers and a questionable understudy who happened to be force sensitive = melodramatic "saviour" bumbling his way to (almost accidentally) decapitating the Empire yet only managing to reinvigorate the power structure below the Emperor.

Interested to see how the scriptwriters deal with the power vacuum and the regime's loyalists in TFA.

My take would be sort of like how the USSR became the Russian Federation. Basically a rebranding with new guys in charge. The Empire still had its starfleet (which should have been able to destroy what was left of that small rebel fleet after the Death Star had had its go but that's another debate) and infrastructure. If the rebels brought their best to Endor, that's not enough to wrest power even on one planet, let alone a galaxy. They would still need a long time to get anywhere without more resources. I suspect Luke is going to be of the view that "I've done my part in settling the galaxy's force problems. How it goes from here is up to the people and call me if anything like this rears its head again."

[jeff_14]

9 minutes ago, Battrax said:

"You better not miss, you expensive little piece of bovine excrement, or you'll be sold off to a 3rd division team in Andorra."

I see Vince Lombardi has learned to teach from beyond the grave.

[Battrax]

So... Kylo Ren is Putin? Someone needs to put together a photo op of him bare chested riding a taun taun or remotely controlling a firefighting droid. Or maybe shooting a tranquiliser dart to a wampa during a tag and release effort.

[Darth_Raichu]

4 minutes ago, Battrax said:

So... Kylo Ren is Putin? Someone needs to put together a photo op of him bare chested riding a taun taun or remotely controlling a firefighting droid. Or maybe shooting a tranquiliser dart to a wampa during a tag and release effort.

Insert a picture of Kylo Ren emerging from the ocean shirtless here

 

[jeff_14]

I think it's more that Max von Sydow's Supreme Leader Snoak is Putin. No one wants that picture. 

[Ciglione]

All this Star Wars talk... must be a new movie coming out?

[Darth_Raichu]

15 minutes ago, jeff_14 said:

He'd tell him to aim straight because the goalie always moves. Obviously.  :)

 

14 minutes ago, Battrax said:

"You better not miss, you expensive little piece of bovine excrement, or you'll be sold off to a 3rd division team in Andorra."

Lol the question was if what Obi Wan said to Luke in the XWing constitute teaching.  If a coach repeat "trust yourself" 3 times to young kicker just before a penalty shot, isn't that consider teaching ?

[jeff_14]

If you want to consider repeating the same thing to a 20 year old teaching, fine. But at some point he's going to have to learn how to do actually do things, like what Yoda did on Dagobah, and there is nothing to indicate the ghosts are capable of doing very much at all. Don't get me wrong, props to them for overcoming death, but all indications are they don't plan on spending much time with the living. Yoda gave Luke a polite F off to that idea in my view. Obi-wan was AWOL for all of the time after the Death Star blew up until he sent him to Yoda which is when Luke needed training badly, then didn't show up again until about a year after Luke found out from Vader that Obi-wan had been lying through his teeth the whole time. His attendance record is worse than Marco Rubio's.

Edited November 13, 2015 by jeff_14